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OSAS does not survive the "Sola Scriptura test" in Matthew 18..etc

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by BobRyan, Mar 9, 2018.

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  1. loDebar

    loDebar Well-Known Member

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    BobRyan answered this in post#2

    Allow me to add:

    Forgiveness of sin and salvation to me as an individual are not the same.
    All SIN (total, capital letters, past and future) is forgiven.

    Salvation is accepting.
    1. I need salvation
    2 I cannot save myself
    3. Only Jesus can
    4 Exercising Faith (supplied by God) that Jesus is sufficient, willing and able to save me

    Forgiveness is a blanket pardon, Salvation is accepting that pardon.
     
  2. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Done only by lost sinners, see the Pharisees!
     
  3. delizzle

    delizzle Active Member

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    Thank you for your time and thoughtful input. I appreciate it. When you have a chance, I would like to here your thoughts on the other half of the chapter, particularly these passages:

    If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. So do not throw away your confidence; it will be richly rewarded. You need to persevere so that when you have done the will of God, you will receive what he has promised. And, “But my righteous one will live by faith. And I take no pleasure in the one who shrinks back.” But we do not belong to those who shrink back and are destroyed, but to those who have faith and are saved.
    Hebrews 10:26‭-‬27‭, ‬35‭-‬36‭, ‬38‭-‬39 NIV
     
  4. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    That passage is describing the professors amonge Jews who said Jesus was messiah, but ran back to OT sacrifices and worship ewhen troubles hit, so showed were not really saved!
     
  5. loDebar

    loDebar Well-Known Member

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    Hebrew 6 is not talking about turning away by professors, despite commentaries, nor deliberately sinning and loosing salvation. It presents that there is no need to review Salvation again, speaking to Christian Hebrews, because one cannot crucify Christ afresh ever time they sin. The writer wanted to discuss maturity as a Christian
     
    #45 loDebar, Mar 10, 2018
    Last edited: Mar 10, 2018
  6. Darrell C

    Darrell C Well-Known Member
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    Only have a few minutes so I will give you something to consider in regards to this chapter, which I did in an earlier post (POST 17, Page One):


    Hebrews 10:26-29
    King James Version (KJV)

    26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

    27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

    28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:

    29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?



    The reason there remains "no more sacrifice for sins" is pretty simple, if you are not indoctrinated into false doctrine...

    ...because they are rejecting the only thing that can save them.

    In view are Hebrews, not Christians, and if you look at the text you will see that this is not contrasting good Christian/bad Christian...it is contrasting from among the Hebrew people those who rejected Moses' Law (the Covenant of Law) and those who reject, in order...

    1. Jesus Christ, The Son of God;
    2. His Sacrifice;
    3. His Covenant;
    4. The efforts of the Spirit of Grace, the Comforter, Who is the One Who convicts unbelievers of sin, righteousness, and judgment:


    As mentioned earlier, most proof texts of the L.O.S.T. (loss of salvation teachers) improperly identify those being warned as regenerate believers. Here, it is a contrast between those who reject the Covenant of Law, and those who reject the New Covenant, which throughout the Book the Writer tries to convince his brethren (Hebrew) they must turn to Christ, rather than remain under Law.

    If we continue in the text, which as mentioned before, has to be understood throughout (which I why I exhort you to understand the first half of the Chapter) in light of all that he writes, so we cannot make this contradict what he has already said:


    30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.


    31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.



    Who are the "People" in view? The same people in view in the original statement...Israel. In view is a judgment of God on the Hebrew people based on their response to His Word.



    32 But call to remembrance the former days, in which, after ye were illuminated, ye endured a great fight of afflictions;


    33 Partly, whilst ye were made a gazingstock both by reproaches and afflictions; and partly, whilst ye became companions of them that were so used.



    Again, spoken to Hebrews, and those associated with Christianity. The only thing we can say for sure is that they received illumination, which is what I was speaking of in regards to Hebrews 6:4-6. That is simply how men come to be saved, the Comforter ministers the Gospel to them, shows them the truth of the GOspel and the condition they lie in (lost and destined for Hell), and they respond. The response is not always saving faith. I myself was ministered to for well over a year, but probably closer to two.


    34 For ye had compassion of me in my bonds, and took joyfully the spoiling of your goods, knowing in yourselves that ye have in heaven a better and an enduring substance.


    35 Cast not away therefore your confidence, which hath great recompence of reward.


    36 For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise.


    37 For yet a little while, and he that shall come will come, and will not tarry.


    38 Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.


    39 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.



    Verses 38-39 show the warning: do not draw back unto perdition. Same warning is found in Hebrews 6, "Emulate those who have faith."

    What he does is distinguish between "drawing back unto perdition," and...believing to the saving of the soul. Only one of the two is actually saved.

    But, again, until you understand this...


    Hebrews 10:14
    King James Version (KJV)

    14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.



    ...and see it for what it is, a clear statement of Eternal Security, you will have doubts about most of what you see in Hebrews, because we often look at our lives and wonder how God could save sinners like us. The fact is, it is because we could do nothing to save ourselves that He came to make Salvation a reality for us.

    Again, just do me a favor, and spend some time in the first 14 verses of this chapter. And I almost gave you a hint, lol, but that would defeat the purpose. The statements made are pretty clear, and it is just a matter of keeping the context together.

    And sorry, have to get going, so this has been rushed. And I didn't use the NIV, because I am not a fan of the newer one. The 1984 edition is not bad, but the newer one isn't so hot.


    God bless.
     
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  7. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    His point is that when they turn back in a final turn to Judaism once again, they leave any profession of Christ, and are now showing true roots as being unsaved.
     
  8. loDebar

    loDebar Well-Known Member

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    I totally agree, but this showing the point of understanding then rejection of the Gospel. I do not think it goes as far as professors of the gospel, in this verse.
     
  9. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Their turning away from Jesus and salvation shows that they were never part of Him to start.
     
  10. delizzle

    delizzle Active Member

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    Thank you. I will do some further research.
     
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  11. loDebar

    loDebar Well-Known Member

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    yes
     
  12. loDebar

    loDebar Well-Known Member

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    When I said this I should have added how important it is. It means, All sin is paid for even for those who do not accept Him. It makes predestination is error. Instead of Limited Atonement, it is unclaimed atonement. rejected by millions and the Atonement is claimed by millions, It is not God only paid for partial sins.

    Being totally accepted by God, the salvation of Jesus is sufficient. It also shows the how useless it is for those working for forgiveness when it is already completely paid , in total. Works add nothing, miss-works cannot detract from the finished work.
     
  13. David Kent

    David Kent Well-Known Member
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    • John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
    • 17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
    • 18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

    Everlasting life is everlasting. If you could lose your faith it cannot be everlasting.
     
  14. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Let's look at "the details"

    Your argument is "with the text" --

    Did you want to propose a "saved but no longer forgiven" text? Or did you simply want to "Quote you" to make that case that Christians should ignore the teaching of Christ?

    Matthew 18 is specifically about forgiveness revoked.

    32 Then his master, after he had called him, said to him, ‘You wicked servant! I forgave you all that debt because you begged me. 33 Should you not also have had compassion on your fellow servant, just as I had pity on you?’ 34 And his master was angry, and delivered him to the torturers until he should pay all that was due to him. 35 “So My heavenly Father also will do to you if each of you, from his heart, does not forgive his brother his trespasses.”
     
    #54 BobRyan, Mar 10, 2018
    Last edited: Mar 10, 2018
  15. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    BobRyan said:
    Matthew 18 is specifically about forgiveness revoked.

    32 Then his master, after he had called him, said to him, ‘You wicked servant! I forgave you all that debt because you begged me. 33 Should you not also have had compassion on your fellow servant, just as I had pity on you?’ 34 And his master was angry, and delivered him to the torturers until he should pay all that was due to him. 35 “So My heavenly Father also will do to you if each of you, from his heart, does not forgive his brother his trespasses.”

    1. You seriously think that New Covenant of Jeremiah 31:31-33 can be used to delete the teaching of Christ in Matthew 18??

    2. You think the New Covenant that says "I will write My LAW on their heart and mind" is at war against the LAW of God???

    Christ's atonement - provide forgiveness - Christ said that having been forgiven we are under obligation to forgive.

    Matthew 18 is specifically about forgiveness revoked.

    32 Then his master, after he had called him, said to him, ‘You wicked servant! I forgave you all that debt because you begged me. 33 Should you not also have had compassion on your fellow servant, just as I had pity on you?’ 34 And his master was angry, and delivered him to the torturers until he should pay all that was due to him. 35 “So My heavenly Father also will do to you if each of you, from his heart, does not forgive his brother his trespasses.”
     
  16. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Fine -- edit the teaching of Christ that we find below - to fit your doctrine. Show us what it would look like.

    Matthew 18 is specifically about forgiveness revoked.

    32 Then his master, after he had called him, said to him, ‘You wicked servant! I forgave you all that debt because you begged me. 33 Should you not also have had compassion on your fellow servant, just as I had pity on you?’ 34 And his master was angry, and delivered him to the torturers until he should pay all that was due to him. 35 “So My heavenly Father also will do to you if each of you, from his heart, does not forgive his brother his trespasses.”[/QUOTE]
     
  17. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    So far the OSAS argument confines itself to "posters quoting themselves" or arguing that we need to "ignore the teaching of Christ in Matthew 18".

    Looks like two failing options.
     
  18. loDebar

    loDebar Well-Known Member

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    rather touchy,

    You make several mistakes regarding the chapter, We are forgiven, as the servant, why are we not in the same attitude of forgiveness? Why was the servant angry at his debtor? Where was the spirit of forgiveness?

    Mat 18:32
    Then his lord, after that he had called him, said unto him, O thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt, because thou desiredst me:
    Mat 18:33
    Shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellowservant, even as I had pity on thee?
    Mat 18:34
    And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him.
    Mat 18:35
    So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.

    As it is obvious, forgiving debts is not salvation, The servant did not have a correct heart to realize what the Master had done for him and only thought of himself. Salvation shows in a different attitude
     
  19. loDebar

    loDebar Well-Known Member

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    list please.
     
  20. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    This is exactly the way I have been expecting the serious objection to my argument to begin.

    Thanks for doing that. Looking at the details in the chapter to point out any flaw in my statements rather than those who choose to "quote themselves" or else argue that we should ignore details that don't fit OSAS.

    This is exactly the complaint of his Lord. Because the full forgiveness as the starting condition was flawless and is fully experienced by the servant -- the Lord had every expectation that just as the servant was fully forgiven - so he would out of gratitude for that "experience" - forgive others.

    The King does not say "I did not actually forgive you your debt... you never actually experienced full forgiveness... but I wanted you to forgive others even as you had NOT experienced forgiveness".

    That as we all know - is not even remotely "the detail" that we find in the text.

    True. His Lord does not question his own act in forgiving the servant - but rather insists that his own part is flawless.

    Also true. He refers back to His own complete and flawless act of mercy on the servant. Full ... and complete and says that since the servant actually experienced it.. he should out of gratitude have "done likewise"

    There you have it -- easy for all of us to see... that full and complete forgiveness -- revoked. The servant must now pay his original debt for failing to "act" - failing to forgive others AS he was truly forgiven.

    Also true - Christ then applies the most "osas denying" aspect of the parable - to the real life of His followers. Clearly indicating that He too considers His followers to have been "fully forgiven".
    He insists that they too have fully experienced the full forgiveness of their debt of sin and that they too are under the obligation to forgive others.

    Until you read the actual New Covenant. Nothing in the text says that we owe God some "other debt" other than the debt of sin - that is so vast we could never repay and survive it... You just leaped off the cliff of merely "assuming the salient point of your own argument" rather than proving it.

    That is a bit disappointing after that build up.

    1. There is no such thing as a "Fully forgiven lost person who has experienced full forgiveness of sin YET is going to pay for their sin in hell anyway" -- and we both know it.

    2. The Master does not say "you did not think you were forgiven and that is why you did not forgive" - the flaw you are inserting - is flatly contradicted in the "details" of the chapter.

    3. After having been fully forgiven -- that servant leaves and then is confronted by a situation where he has a free will choice to make - and chooses to not forgive. It is only in that later exchange that the servant is making that sort of choice. In the initial exchange he freely confesses his guilt, offer to repay the impossible then is freely forgiven and walks away forgiven instead of being sold and tormented. This is not even debated in the actual text.
     
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