OSAS does not survive the "Sola Scriptura test" in Matthew 18..etc

Those who do not accept the forgiveness as personal and deserving cannot be saved.

We are all fully forgiven, that is the point you are missing, Jesus has forgiven sin, That does not saved you.. You have to be repentant and that shows in a change in heart . The servant was not. Those who reject salvation are "condemned already", The go to the punishment already decided, same as the servant, Even though forgiven, he did not have the internal change.


Is your position normal for SDA or personal?

 

The points you give actually testify to what we as Seventh-day Adventist preach, in that there are true and false persons professing the name of Christ and His Kingdom. There are 3 groups, the true professing ['sheep'], the false professing ['goats'], and the never professing [already condemned; John 3:18 KJB], even as Revelation 9:15; along with Ezekiel 9:4-6 KJB, etc. reveals.

Matthew 18 KJB, proves the investigtive judgment, for it deals with those professing to be "servants" of the LORD, whether true in heart or no, and the revocation of forgiveness [that was given to both] being within the prerogatives of God.

God's forgiveness is real, not imaginary, but so is the revocation. Forgiveness is sin that is covered, not blotted out of existence:

Psalms 32:1 KJB - A Psalm of David, Maschil. Blessed is he whose transgression is forgiven, whose sin is covered.

Psalms 85:2 KJB - Thou hast forgiven the iniquity of thy people, thou hast covered all their sin. Selah.​

Sin that is only "covered" ["forgiven"] can be uncovered, unforgiven. Sin that is entirely blotted out, is gone forever, and has no need to be covered. Numerous texts on this, and they have been shared repeatedly in the past in these very forums.

A person may cover the sun with their hand, but it does not blot it out, and continues to exist under the covering. It the sun were blotted out, there is no need to cover it, since it no longer exists.

Notice that Mattthew 18:23-35 KJB, is in the context of forgiveness within the group of professing, as Peter was, see Matthew 18:21-22 KJB. Matthew 18 KJB, is not dealing with the never professing, but only those professing, whether inwardly true or no, see Matthew 18:35 KJB, "you", "your", "brother" and even "Father". Matthew 18:28-35 KJB, says "fellowservant/s". Matthew 18:26 KJB, says "worshipped". Matthew 18:23 KJB, says "Kingdom of Heaven", and thus dealing with professing citizens thereof, and so on.

Therefore, since only God may read the hearts, and angels cannot, the angels are right now looking into the record books of Heaven, for it is, right now, their time to be judging:

Daniel 7:9 KJB - I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.

Daniel 7:10 KJB - A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.

Revelation 14:6 KJB - And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,

Revelation KJB -14:7 Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.​

Later, it is then given to the saints, during the 1,000 years in Heaven:

Daniel 7:22 KJB - Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.

Revelation 20:4 KJB - And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

1 Corinthians 6:2 KJB - Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?

1 Corinthians 6:3 KJB - Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?​

 

Romans 6

15What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? May it never be! 16Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness?

Here Paul points out under grace they fall slave of sin.


Matthew 5

27“You have heard that it was said, ‘YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT ADULTERY’; 28but I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart. 29“If your right eye makes you stumble, tear it out and throw it from you; for it is better for you to lose one of the parts of your body, than for your whole body to be thrown into hell. 30“If your right hand makes you stumble, cut it off and throw it from you; for it is better for you to lose one of the parts of your body, than for your whole body to go into hell.

Here Jesus doesn't say well just believe on me and you are saved once and for all. OSAS believer would tell Jesus no I can sin all I want don't have to cut anything off.

Matthew 13

. 40“So just as the tares are gathered up and burned with fire, so shall it be at the end of the age. 41“The Son of Man will send forth His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all stumbling blocks, and those who commit lawlessness, 42and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Nothing here about those branded saved get a free pass, all who commit lawlessness.



Matthew 18

32“Then summoning him, his lord said to him, ‘You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me. 33‘Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, in the same way that I had mercy on you?’

Most believers of OSAS would also declare that you can't possibly be forgiven unless you have been saved.





Romans 11

17If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root, 18do not consider yourself to be superior to those other branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you. 19You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in.” 20Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but tremble. 21For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.

22Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off.

You are not a natural branch. You were grafted in. And the very first thing you do is DO believe you are superior to other branches.

TELL US WHAT THIS LINE MEANS--->For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.

What does this mean---> Otherwise, you also will be cut off.


John 15

1“I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. 2“Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit, He prunes it so that it may bear more fruit. 3“You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. 4“Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself unless it abides in the vine, so neither can you unless you abide in Me. 5“I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing. 6“If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned. 7“If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you. 8“My Father is glorified by this, that you bear much fruit, and so prove to be My disciples. 9“Just as the Father has loved Me, I have also loved you; abide in My love. 10“If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love; just as I have kept My Father’s commandments and abide in His love. 11“These things I have spoken to you so that My joy may be in you, and that your joy may be made full.

12“This is My commandment, that you love one another, just as I have loved you. 13“Greater love has no one than this, that one lay down his life for his friends. 14“You are My friends if you do what I command you.15“No longer do I call you slaves, for the slave does not know what his master is doing; but I have called you friends, for all things that I have heard from My Father I have made known to you. 16“You did not choose Me but I chose you, and appointed you that you would go and bear fruit, and that your fruit would remain, so that whatever you ask of the Father in My name He may give to you. 17“This I command you, that you love one another.

Jesus says he already cleaned you: 3“You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you.

Next step is to remain with him.

6“If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned.

Hold on Jesus, you said I was already clean.


What does abide in Jesus? I don't have to abide in Jesus.

10“If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love; just as I have kept My Father’s commandments and abide in His love.



Galatians 5

4You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.5For we through the Spirit, by faith, are waiting for the hope of righteousness. 6For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything, but faith working through love.

You can't get cut off from Jesus, unless you were joined with Jesus.

You can't fall from grace, if you never had grace.

 

Assuming of course that salvation and sanctification are the same thing...

 

Bait:

Hebrews 10:30 KJB - For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.

[It's like there's an 'angle' in every 'line' ... goin' fishin' ...]​

 

One who is born of God will never die, because he is born of God. Christ's work is effectual and eternal. Nothing shall separate us from Him, not even we ourselves.

 

Matthew 18 itself defeats Bob's argument.

The torment is temporary. And in the Lord's Prayer, where we're taught to pray for forgiveness as we are forgiven, we are addressing God as our Father, not as a judge, and we're not asking to be forgiven of sin, but of trespass. And trespass, not sin, is the issue in Matthew 18.

Now since Adventists make their boast in the law, they should understand the difference.

​

 

If Christ's death was not sufficient to pay for all sins, He was not God.
You mention three types but distinguish two with fakes being not saved. Those who have accepted God's pardon or not.

The OT sins were covered. The account was settled on the cross

The discussion on angels is for another thread

 

Yes it is sufficient to pay for all sins but does that mean all are saved?

 

If Jesus sneezed that would be sufficient for all people in the universe 10000000000x times over.

If God has to pay a bill of any kind......he's not God.

The relationship here is parent to child not politician or club owner to fools.

Lottery Calvinist, God just spontaneously likes you, doesn't matter what you do God will save you.
Because thats what good people do......they see children mangled in the street and flip a coin as to whether they should help them. Maybe help half to let the other know how appreciative we would even bother to help them.
REAL SAINTLY like God.

Or maybe he's just MR MEGALOMANIAC. Yeah I got you covered, do all the sinning you want. Ill give you a whole kingdom just kneel before and worship me, and its all yours do all the sinning you want you are saved. You surely will not die.

The idea that Jesus gives us the same deal Satan gave him and the same promises of adam. Surely you wont die. Satan was the first person to push OSAS.

Once saved, now you are a robot, your choice to reject is GONE.
Thats not being saved, thats being deleted.




Parent to child, means its to your actual benefit. to help you put away all your fears and conquer all your suffering.

Doesn't matter what brand you have on your head, doesn't matter how great your divine report card looks, you can be a saint for a thousand years, if you smoke crack to day......your parents main concern is you got a problem.

Its not about forcing your mind and heart with rewards and consequences, but keeping you true when your punked around by fear of reward and consequence.


Just because we suffer from fear and anger doesn't mean we should attribute our stupidity to God and assume harsh and stupid motions on God's part.


A Calvinist told me, what is so shocking and astronomically miraculous is that God would save anybody.

He was so shocked that GOD was just half a jerk then the complete one he expected.

Cause He expected perfect unforgiving evil. So it was a BIG SURPRISE God cares for anybody.



I'm from the other side of the spectrum. I WOULD NOT BE surprise if God turned out to be a PERFECT HERO, Saving everyone.

And if you think I am wrong, I can't wait to see the look on your face in Judgement day.


Lord this next case, I can't believe it, its like a joke. This fellah here had the audacity to believe that you were SUCH A GOOD THING, a PERFECT HERO, He actually thought you could possibly help everyone in a blink of an eye? HA-HA-HA What a JOKE right GOD? that anyone would actually think so highly of you.

Judgement Day, Bring it please. Folks are going to be laid out for all the false accusations they placed on God.

 

I am not Calvinist, though, The point is if the payment is made, then adding or helping is futile.
If falling away is possible how can that person be saved , the second time? crucify Christ again, ?no That shows that all sins were not forgiven. which is wrong. Salvation is secure, the relationship may be damaged

 

He did pay for SIN total, all sin by His death, All could be saved, It was sufficient., Regrettably to us and Heaven some will not choose the blanket pardon

 

And it is a temporal setting, Bob, it is not Christ teaching that if men do not forgive one another...their salvation will be revoked.

If you want to remove OSAS (Eternal Security) from the context of your false teaching, then I will be happy to agree with you, because as I have stated numerous times Christians are still under the penalty of death when they sin, which is also a temporal context.

Meaning, if Christians sin, God can forego forgiveness to the point where He exacts the penalty of death. We see this in Ananias and Sapphira, and in those who partake of Communion unworthily. John speaks of a sin unto death.

But that has nothing to do with Eternal Security, that is where you err.

Another thing I have tried to get across to you is the simple fact that the Gospel of Jesus Christ was not preached...by Jesus Christ (to those He ministered to). His primary role, which was under Law, was to Israel:


Matthew 15:24
King James Version (KJV)

24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.


Matthew 10:5-6
King James Version (KJV)

5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:

6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.


So you are imposing into this...

...something that isn't there. This has relevance to a temporal setting, and seeing that Christ and the Disciples preached the Gospel of the Kingdom...


Matthew 4:23
King James Version (KJV)

23 And Jesus went about all Galilee, teaching in their synagogues, and preaching the gospel of the kingdom, and healing all manner of sickness and all manner of disease among the people.


...the primary relevance is to that Kingdom that God will establish on this earth. That is...the Millennial Kingdom.

Christ did not minister outside of the framework of revelation which Israel had been given, but He ministered to them under the Law, and within that framework. What is true of the Kingdom was applicable to Israel in its entire history.

You are taking this verse and creating an especially damnable doctrine of men which has a goal something forbidden to Christians, which is to seek to bring men under the toke of the Law again.

What part of...


Hebrews 8:12-13
King James Version (KJV)

12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.

13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.


...are not understanding?

The remission of sins granted to men in salvation in Christ is, as you have been shown in numerous ways...forever. There is no possibility of Remission of Sins through the Redemption which is in Christ Jesus being...revoked.

That is what God promised wqhen He promised the New Testament...


Hebrews 10:15-18
King James Version (KJV)

15 Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,

16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;

17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.

18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.


...and the only question you raise is...

...why are you unable to see something so simple?


Continued...

 

What if some accept and then fall away from that acceptance to rejection?

 

But Bob...you are the one cancelling Scripture to satisfy your doctrine.

I can see how this...

BobRyan said: ↑
32 Then his master, after he had called him, said to him, ‘You wicked servant! I forgave you all that debt because you begged me. 33 Should you not also have had compassion on your fellow servant, just as I had pity on you?’ 34 And his master was angry, and delivered him to the torturers until he should pay all that was due to him. 35 “So My heavenly Father also will do to you if each of you, from his heart, does not forgive his brother his trespasses.”

...is relevant to life on earth, but you cannot see how this...


Hebrews 10:14
King James Version (KJV)

14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.


...is relevant to Remission of Sins in regards to Eternal Salvation.

That makes me very sad for you, because you are missing the joy of salvation, and complete trust in Jesus Christ and His Sacrifice. And its all right there in Hebrews 10 for you to understand.

You have only Bob to trust in, and that is a far cry from trusting in Christ.

The "Law" here is no different than the Law here...


Romans 2:12-16
King James Version (KJV)

12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;

13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another)

16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

...which shows God Himself, even before giving us the Promised Spirit, reveals His will directly to the hearts of men.

Not His Covenant which He made only with the Nation of Israel.

And that is the Promise of God to those who are born again:


Ezekiel 36:24-27
King James Version (KJV)

24 For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.

25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.

26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.


Christians don't need Bob to tell them to keep "the Law," they have God indwelling them that shows them His will.


Continued...

 

Accept what?


God bless.

 

Jesus as Savior,