What do Preterists believe about 2 Peter 3

Do you actually think that "return" and "come again" have different meanings?? You are semantically quibbling. But again, if you must have the exact word in the KJV "return," see Acts 15:16.

 

1 Peter 1:1,2 YLT
Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the choice sojourners of the dispersion of Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, according to a foreknowledge (The foreknown?) of God the Father, in sanctification of the Spirit, to obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace to you and peace be multiplied!

Amos 3:1,2
Hear this word that the LORD hath spoken against you, O children of Israel, against the whole family which I brought up from the land of Egypt, saying, You only have I known of all the families of the earth: therefore I will punish you for all your iniquities.

When was that written? About 750 BC? Was God about to disperse, sift, some of the only people of the earth, that he did know?

Amos 9:9 For, lo, I will command, and I will sift the house of Israel among all nations, like as corn is sifted in a sieve, yet shall not the least grain fall upon the earth.

I wonder if they might have been the people Peter was writing to?

 

The same Jesus,ina physically glorified body, shall return, and all eyes shall see Him at that time. Not a spiritual return as JW and pretierists hold with!

 

You win the prize for the most loaded questions in one short post.

 

Not sure how one question, which in no way can be viewed as loaded...wins this prize.

Does that mean no-one has ever asked a loaded question on BB before?




God bless.

 

If you can't see it I probably can't show it to you. But, yes, your last point is well taken.

 

This...

Now, state clearly if you deny that Christ is going to return, then we can get back to the discussion about why Preterism is the goofiest Eschatology one could embrace.

We can begin with how you deem Prophecy fulfilled when Christ did not return in the First Century.



...centers on one question: how can Prophecy be fulfilled in the First Century when Christ did not return. Asking him to state clearly if he denies Christ is going to return is a request, not a question. But I think the following discussion with him clarified for me that he wasn't so much denying Christ's return, but that he was basically asking for a Scriptural presentation of that, which he himself had not found.

So I turn the "loaded question" to you, lol, how can Prophecy be fulfilled in it's ultimate sense when Christ did not return?

I will say that I do view Prophecy as having multiple applications at times, such as Prophecy concerning the coming of Messiah, and Daniel having an application to events BC as well as having a future fulfillment. But that is quite different than taking a view that Prophecy has been fulfilled and that's that.

And by the way, calling the Preterist View "the goofiest position" was given more as a goad. I can understand why people would embrace such a view, but, what I don't understand is why they do not also forsake it when their view is shown to be very weak.


God bless.

 

Preterists cannot have communion...

1 Corinthians 11:26 For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord's death till he come.

 

Now you tell me lol!

Who says we can't? Hank, by the same logic I could say that futurists cannot have the presence of Christ any more after the end of the age.

"Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the age.. (Matthew 28:20)

 

A loaded question again! Oh well, I'll bite.

Christ did return. He just didn't do it in a manner that you have been taught to expect. Just like 1st century Jews did not recognize the nature of their Messiah's first coming, so a lot of Christians do not recognize the nature of His return - and presence.

 

Bro Tom! You do exist

Uh, in Matthew 28:20 He says "even" not "til" - big difference
Actually the word "even" is not in the original language text.

Wouldn't you be compromising your position by having communion seeing He has come already (til He come")?

 

Hmm. No cigar, my friend. The issue is not the "even", but that Christ used the same type of phrase that we find in your verse, implying a seeming cessation of something. Check out, say, Vincent's Word Studies on this verse, especially his quote from Morison.

But, no, I would not be compromising my position. It's a case of soul liberty. For me a good communion service reminds of what Christ has done for us.

 

lol

It is true that Christ returned to indwell believers (John 14:18, 23), however, Scripture speaks of a literal return at which time all unbelievers are destroyed and the Kingdom promised to Israel is established.

So the question I would pose to you now is at what time do you place Christ's Return? Pentecost?


God bless.

 

I disagree, you have compromised your position

 

Just kiddin'

 

The Bible speaks of one return. It happened at AD 70 (the Parousia)

 

Hank, your analysis is absolutely correct. A full preterist cannot honestly celebrate the Lord's Table according to 1 Cor. 11:26. Tom's interpretation of Matt. 28:20 is incorrect. The full preterist ought to reject the Lord's Table just as the Hyper-Dispensationalist rejects baptism.

The important point in the comparison between the two passages is that 1 Cor. 11:26 points to an event, while Matt. 28:20 refers to a time period. Tom has completely ignored or missed this point, as can be seen by his reference to Vine's Expository Dictionary, which is not only out of date linguistically, centering as it does on etymological meanings, it is a resource for semantics (word meanings), not for syntax (sentence structure).

Note again that 1 Cor. 11:26 refers to an event, the Second Coming of Christ. The Greek for "he come" is an aorist, the aspect of which is looking at the event as a whole. (You can't get this from Vine's.) The Second Coming of Christ is a one time event, and after that event, Christ will again drink of the fruit of the vine with us. That will be an awesome time! I feel sorry for full preterists who believe that this event happened "spiritually" (I presume with Christ's empty body still in Heaven), but that Christ never did "sit down in the kingdom of God" with us.

However, Matt. 28:20 refers to a time period, "the end of the age." As in English, you can refer in Greek to the end of a time period without meaning that the stated meaning ceases after the time period. For example, if someone has cancer, a friend may say to him, "I'm with you until this is licked." That does not mean that he will abandon his sick friend as soon as the cancer is healed.

Therefore, Hank is correct. The preterist may only celebrate the Lord's Supper by having a personal reservation in regards to Second Coming of Christ, which they suppose to have already occurred.

 

And the fact is that Christ ddid not return in AD70.

As far as His spiritual return in indwelling believers, we know by Scripture that took place at Pentecost, when the promised Spirit was given unto men.

The Parousia is described in Matthew 25 and Revelation 19, where we see a physical return of Christ.

Here is another:

Zechariah 14
King James Version (KJV)

14 Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.

2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.

3 Then shall the Lord go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.

4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.


All Prophecy will be fulfilled as it has always been fulfilled...to the jot and tittle. I agree we do not sometimes see Prophecy fulfilled as expected, but at no time has Prophecy not been seen to be fulfilled. Prophecy foretold Christ's coming, and we now know that some of the descriptions of His coming, like the one above, apply to the Return He spoke about often.


God bless.

 

All he has to do to prove his AD 70 point, is to show us where in history the physical resurrection of all of the saved in Christ happened in History!

 

Look at 2 Peter 3 - Peter is specifically referring to scoffers of the last days - which began at Pentecost. Jesus had repeatedly warned this generation that he would come in judgment on those who had rejected him.

Note: And when the chief priests and Pharisees had heard his parables, they perceived that he spake of them.
NOT of some future generation 1,000 or more years away. Them, this generation.

Mat. 21:43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof. 44 And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder. 45 And when the chief priests and Pharisees had heard his parables, they perceived that he spake of them.​

Now the scoffers are claiming to be vindicated in their unbelief - "our fathers are dead, despite what Jesus said, & our temple worship continues. Jesus is seen to be a false prophet."

Sinners had 100 years' warning in the days of Noah. (2,500 years before) Their unbelief did not save them - the flood come & they perished. Peter is asserting: "You think you're safe because your fathers have died without seeing the prophesied destruction. By your scoffing you are owning your fathers' sins" :

Mat. 23:31 “Therefore you are witnesses against yourselves that you are sons of those who murdered the prophets. 32 Fill up, then, the measure of your fathers’ guilt.33 Serpents, brood of vipers! How can you escape the condemnation of hell?​

It is possible to read Jesus' final coming for resurrection & judgment into the chapter, that is what is ahead for us, but we're considering the situation in Peter's day:

The tabernacle & temple were given as a sign of the God of heaven living with his people - as Solomon acknowledged, the dwelling-place of God - heaven on earth. 1 Kings 8:27-30 Jesus called the temple "my house." But, as he left it, he called it "your house." What was provided for man to meet with God was condemned to destruction by fire because of their rejection of the owner of the house.

The scoffers would perish as surely as the sinners of Noah's day. Don't despise God's patience - the day of the Lord will come. And what are the elements? Paul tells us:

Gal. 4:3 Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements of the world. 4 But when the fullness of the time had come, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the law, 5 to redeem those who were under the law, that we might receive the adoption as sons.
......
9 But now after you have known God, or rather are known by God, how is it that you turn again to the weak and beggarly elements, to which you desire again to be in bondage?​

The elements are NOT the components making up the planet, nor is the earth the planet. The elements are all the trappings of the Old Covenant - temple, priesthood, sacrifices, etc, and the earth is the land of Israel.

Peter is reminding his readers of the Lord's prophecy: within a generation the temple & everything associated with it, & the land of Israel, will be utterly destroyed. Don't join the scoffers Repent!:

8 But, beloved, do not forget this one thing, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 9 The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us,not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up.
​

And you, dear Reader, do not begin to say that as the coming of the Lord did take place exactly according to Jesus' warning, then underlined by Peter, that you can live in sin without fear of judgment. As if Jesus did not come according to your understanding of his warning, so he did not come.

No! No! No! The judgment of the flood came in Noah's day. The judgment on the generation that rejected their Messiah came in AD 70. The final judgment will come in God's time. You needn't wait 1,000 years, nor even one day; for at your death you will face certain judgment. Take warning:

11 Therefore, since all these things will be dissolved, what manner of persons ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, 12 looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be dissolved, being on fire, and the elements will melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to His promise, look for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells.
​

Live in sin, facing the wrath of God, or repent & live with the glorious hope of the new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells.