What do Preterists believe about 2 Peter 3

And yet, the only verse you cited with the word return was Acts 1:12 which wasn't even referring to Jesus.

 

Save that the scriptures indicate that the resurrection of the saints would have already happened before this event, so when was the Second Coming and the Church members all glorified?

 

Here it is again:


That's not interesting at all, it's just error.

He returned to indwell men:


John 14:15-18
King James Version (KJV)

15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.


John 14:22-23
King James Version (KJV)

22 Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world?

23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.


And have to get going but will give one New Testament and One Old Testament reference to begin a discussion on this point:


Luke 17:30-37
King James Version (KJV)

30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

31 In that day, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back.

32 Remember Lot's wife.

33 Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it.

34 I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.

35 Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

36 Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

37 And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together.


In view is the judgment on unbelievers taught in numerous passages. They are taken in judgment, and are put to death, hence the "eagles being gathered" to feast on their flesh. The ones "left" remain physically alive and enter into the Kingdom. You can read about the Supper of the Great God in Ezekiel 39 and Revelation 20. If you would like to see the consistency of Prophecy on this point let me know, there are numerous passages to consider.

For the Old Testament reference, consider:


Zechariah 14
King James Version (KJV)

14 Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.

2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.

3 Then shall the Lord go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.

4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.


His return to this mount is also prophesied by Angels here...


Acts 1:10-12
King James Version (KJV)

10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;

11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

12 Then returned they unto Jerusalem from the mount called Olivet, which is from Jerusalem a sabbath day's journey.


And I am going to have to forego the urge to keep going, lol. Like I said, we will see the consistency of Prophecy throughout Scripture if we simply leave it intact. That is how Prophecy has always been fulfilled...literally. Why would we shift from this pattern to a spiritualization of Prophecy?

Hope you and everyone here has a blessed day in the Lord.


Clearly shows that Christ is returning.

This is what I hate about debating preterists, they have nothing to show for their doctrine, and they never respond to the questions and points raised which show their doctrine is in error.
.

God bless.

 

You should probably keep going, because you haven't posted a verse yet which has the word return in it, except, as I said, the curious example of Acts 1:12 which isn't talking about Jesus.

 

Acts 1:11b (NIV). 'This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen Him go into heaven.' The word translated 'come back' in the NIV is erchomai, which has the basic meaning of 'come' or 'go' but according to Liddell & Scott can also mean 'come back' or 'return,' the latter meaning being required by the context of Acts 1:11b.

 

Scripture very clearly shows the Return of Christ.

Why you would deny that is evident: you have to deny Scripture to maintain the doctrines of men you have embraced.

Now, state clearly if you deny that Christ is going to return, then we can get back to the discussion about why Preterism is the goofiest Eschatology one could embrace.

We can begin with how you deem Prophecy fulfilled when Christ did not return in the First Century.


God bless.

 

What do Preterists believe about 2 Peter 3

Most of the world slept though it.

 

There are Scriptures which talk about Christ coming. But, I've yet to locate any which say He'll "return".

Thus why I asked for your help, and you can't seem to find any either. So, I recommend the Church dispense with this verbiage.

 

Verse nine likely refers to the remnant of Israel in Romans 11.

Verse 13, the New Heavens and New Earth refers to a new Covenant Kingdom of God. When Jesus mentions "Heaven & Earth" in the gospel of Matthew that refers to Old Covenant theocracy (temple and ethno-state) of Israel.

 

I gave a couple, at this point it is up to you to show why they do not teach the Return. The only way we can achieve anything as brethren is to look at these issues and discuss them among ourselves. It's a matter of accountability, we help each other not to embrace things that are contrary to Scripture.

Here are a few more, so do me a favor, look at them and tell me why you would disagree as to His Return being clearly taught:


Acts 1:9-11
King James Version (KJV)

9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.

10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;

11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.


While we do not see "return," we do see the Angels speak of His coming, which is a key word dealing with Christ's Return. Here we have Him returning to Heaven (from whence He came), so His "coming" is viewed as His Return. That is why we call it the "Second Coming of Christ."


In these we see Christ is, again, coming again:


Acts 3:18-20
King James Version (KJV)

18 But those things, which God before had shewed by the mouth of all his prophets, that Christ should suffer, he hath so fulfilled.

19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord.

20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:



1 Corinthians 4:5
King James Version (KJV)

5 Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God.


Hebrews 10:36-38
King James Version (KJV)

36 For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise.

37 For yet a little while, and he that shall come will come, and will not tarry.


Revelation 1
King James Version (KJV)

7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.


Revelation 22:12-13
King James Version (KJV)

12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.



Revelation 22:20-21
King James Version (KJV)

20 He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus.

21 The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen.


Here, in these, we see His Return described in great detail:


Revelation 19:11-16
King James Version (KJV)

11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.

13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, King Of Kings, And Lord Of Lords.


2 Thessalonians 1:7-10
King James Version (KJV)

7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,

8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

It's just a basic doctrine of the Bible, NCB, taught in both Old and New Testament Prophecy and teaching.


God bless.

 

It actually speaks of all men. The point is "time means nothing to God" A day, or a thousand years...does not impact God in a context of immediacy. In other words, He can be patient, waiting for men to be saved.

You might want to look at v.7 again. In view is ultimate judgment on this earth.

We see this described here:


Revelation 20:11-15
King James Version (KJV)

11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.


At the end of the Millennial Kingdom God judges the dead (those who do not have life in Christ). Immediately after we see...


Revelation 21
King James Version (KJV)

21 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.


Now the reason why we do not view this as fulfilled is really quite simple...we still have the same heavens and Earth Christ came to.

Now if you can give me directions to New Jerusalem and the Tree of Life...


Revelation 22
King James Version (KJV)

22 And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.

2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.

3 And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him:


...where we, the People of God, will serve Him...


12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.

14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.


...then perhaps I might be able to give your view more consideration.

The one question I will ask you is do you believe the Word of God when it teaches that Christ will come quickly? When it teaches that this current universe will pass away and God will create the new heavens and Earth as stated in Revelation 21-22? That Christ went to build that city...


John 14:1-3
King James Version (KJV)

14 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.

2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.


...?

If not...why not?


God bless.

 

It isn't possible to do an exegetical discussion about the English word "return", since it doesn't appear in the English versions I have consulted (perhaps someone can find a version), in pertinent passages.

The words "come", "come again", and "coming" do appear in relevant passages. And so, those words can be analyzed in their contexts.

What is more, they can be compared to the Old Testament for precedent as to what a "coming" is. That is to say, do variations of the word "come" have theological significance in the unfolding of scripture? Or, are they generic incidental action words with no deeper meaning?

 

English isn't a relevant issue. There are numerous concepts taught in Scripture that are not given specific words, such as the Trinity. Or the Eternal State. Or Second Coming.

In the Greek, "coming" is, as I said, a significant word. For example:


1 Corinthians 15:23
King James Version (KJV)

23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.


See the link. His parousia denotes a presence, which is the one thing we do not have in this Age, His presence among us. That presence will be realized when He returns.

We do see the word return used here:


Luke 19:11-12
King James Version (KJV)

11 And as they heard these things, he added and spake a parable, because he was nigh to Jerusalem, and because they thought that the kingdom of God should immediately appear.

12 He said therefore, A certain nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom, and to return.


Christ is the Nobleman Who has "gone into a far country to receive His Kingdom."

He will return, and hold men accountable for their stewardship.

His Return is seen here...


Luke 12:36-37
King James Version (KJV)

36 And ye yourselves like unto men that wait for their lord, when he will return from the wedding; that when he cometh and knocketh, they may open unto him immediately.

37 Blessed are those servants, whom the lord when he cometh shall find watching: verily I say unto you, that he shall gird himself, and make them to sit down to meat, and will come forth and serve them.

Exactly.

The one thing I find lacking in the understanding of many is the failure to properly distinguish between the physical nature of the Old Testament and the spiritual and eternal nature of the realities revealed to us in the New Testament. For example, Ezekiel 18 is usually used by most to teach eternal damnation and eternal salvation, when in fact the only life afforded to men in that day through the keeping of the Law was their own physical lives.

But we can consider Christ's coming as taught in Prophecy in the Old Testament. Numerous things are promised, such as a restored Kingdom in which men would live long lives and enmity between man and animals and animals and animals would end. That hasn't happened yet. So we see that this is still "coming." And when we leave Prophecy intact we see that there is a glorious harmony of Prophecy, all consistent with each other. We see the Supper of the Great God in Ezekiel 39 followed by Kingdom conditions. In Revelation we see a thousand year reign of Christ following the destruction of God's enemies. In Zechariah 14 we see Christ coming to the very mount the Angels said He would return to. In Revelation 19 we see Christ coming and destroying those gathered.

But we have to interpret Prophecy as it has always been fulfilled. We can expect fulfillment just like it was in regards to Christ.

As you said, the context must be discerned in every instance. We can't broadbrush any particular word, because the same word can be used to teach about something unrelated to what it teaches elsewhere. For example, "perfection/completion" in Hebrews Ten has a specific context in regards to remission of sins. That same Greek word is used to speak of Progressive Sanctification elsewhere though, so we have to distinguish that in the context.

Okay, have to get going, but enjoying the discussion.

Hope you and everyone here has a blessed day in the Lord.


God bless.

 

Good response, Darrell.

 

OK we have split that gnat's eyelash

 

Also, in the same body, glorified physical one, and all eyes shall see Him, so would has to be a visible, not an invisible returning!

 

The "strangers" in this verse might better be translated "sojourners." In 1611 this is what the English word "stranger" meant--not someone the speaker did not know, but someone dwelling in another country.

 

Really? I mean really?

Acts 1:11--"This same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven."--That is definitely "returning."

Acts 15:16--"After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up."

John 14:3--"And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also." ("Come again" means "return."

 

Maybe this qualifies as a 'return':

28 so Christ also, having been once offered to bear the sins of many, shall appear a second time, apart from sin, to them that wait for him, unto salvation. Heb 9

 

This passage is interpreted in Acts 15 as in the process of being fulfilled THEN, at that moment in time. Synonymous with:

18 And I also say unto thee, that thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it. Mt 16