New heavens and new earth requires the Second Coming event, not spiritualized as meaning the fall of Jerusalem and the new religious order now coming in, as pretierists hold with!
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What do Preterists believe about 2 Peter 3
- Thread starter Bronconagurski
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Am I to understand this to be your assertion that Christ did return and thus fulfilled the Prophecy of His Return?
God bless.
My understanding of 2 Peter 3 is that he is referring to Jesus' promised coming to punish the scoffers of "this generation" & destroy Jerusalem & the temple, according to his Olivet prophecy.
That understanding does not preclude his final coming for general resurrection & judgment, when the righteous NH&NE will be established.
So when was the new Heavens and earth ushered in, with all saints physically resurrected and glorified?
The only problem with that is that Christ did not return in the First Century, and He did not destroy Jerusalem and the Temple.
His Return is taught as a visible return, one in which His presence will be prominent. Secondly, we distinguish His Return from the Rapture because the Church, as a whole, will be with Christ from that time forward, and in that resurrection both those who have died as well as those who are still alive will be glorified and caught up.
Lastly, the "generation" in view is the generation that sees the signs. And we will know that the fulfillment has taken place when His Return, which coincides with all teachings concerning His Return, takes place as He teaches in Matthew 24 as well as in Revelation 19.
We are not aught a "return" in regards to the passing away of the current heavens and earth, rather, the dead are collected and brought to Him (The Great White Throne). This takes place after the Promised Kingdom of Old Testament Prophecy is established and endures for one thousand years. There is not a single Prophecy uttered by God or His Prophets that will not be fulfilled, and when God makes a promise...He keeps it. So if we leave Prophecy intact we see a consistent teaching of events which will take place as follows: the Pre-Trib Rapture, the Seven Year Tribulation, the Return of Christ, the thousand year Kingdom on this current earth, the passing away of the current universe and the Great White Throne, then the Eternal State in which we dwell in the new heavens and Earth.
Be glad to discuss any or all of these issues.
God bless.
I think that the generation that will be seeing all of those signs and His Second Coming was what Jesus was speaking concerning this generation...
Sorry was in the middle of a response, but wanted to touch on the destruction of the Temple and City again, and show the consistency of Prophecy:
Daniel 9:24-27
King James Version (KJV)
24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
Here we are told of the destruction of the city and the Sanctuary, and it is destroyed by the people of the "prince to come."
We would not view this as a reference to Christ, either in the First Century or in the Tribulation, because the simple fact is that Christians did not destroy the City and the Temple in AD70, and they are not the ones who will trample the city underfoot in the Tribulation. Antichrist's people will do that.
Secondly, we know it is not a reference to Christ because in v.27 we are told that this prince will "confirm," or strengthen the Covenant for one week (a period of seven years), and the simple fact is that the Covenant relevant to Daniel's people is the Covenant of Law. Christ did not confirm the Covenant of Law, but abrogated it. Secondly this confirmation takes place after Messiah is cut off. Third, He did not make obsolete the sacrifices of the Law nor make the Covenant desolate through His Sacrifice.
In view is the Antichrist supporting Israel's right to worship as they once did, and he will establish a pact or treaty for seven years, but will, in the middle of those seven years, reverse his position. This coincides with the Two Witnesses being killed by Antichrist, raised from the dead and being raptured, at which time Antichrist stands in the Temple proclaiming himself god.
Now I will say that we could see an application to a partial fulfillment in Antiochus Epiphanes, and perhaps Nero, but, the ultimate fulfillment still remains. And at the end of that seven year period...Christ will return as shown in Revelation 19.
God bless.
Covenanter said: ↑
In this & subsequent replies, you have used the term "return" whereas in the 2 Peter 3 context, I have used the term "coming."
It seems clear that Peter was dealing with those who remembered Jesus prophecy of his coming to effect judgment & the destruction of Jerusalem, & were scoffing at the "failed" prophecy.
I believe there are other "comings" of the Lord Jesus -
e.g.
various appearances on the OC Scriptures;
his incarnation;
his coming into Jerusalem on Palm Sunday;
his AD 70 coming to deliver the believers from Jerusalem & destroy those who persistently rejected him & his Gospel;
a final coming, aka return, to raise & judge the dead & establish the NH&NE in perfect righteousness.
I will answer your detailed posts, but will just say the argument concerns whether dispensationalism is a valid interpretation system.
In this & subsequent replies, you have used the term "return" whereas in the 2 Peter 3 context, I have used the term "coming."
It seems clear that Peter was dealing with those who remembered Jesus prophecy of his coming to effect judgment & the destruction of Jerusalem, & were scoffing at the "failed" prophecy.
I believe there are other "comings" of the Lord Jesus -
e.g.
various appearances on the OC Scriptures;
his incarnation;
his coming into Jerusalem on Palm Sunday;
his AD 70 coming to deliver the believers from Jerusalem & destroy those who persistently rejected him & his Gospel;
a final coming, aka return, to raise & judge the dead & establish the NH&NE in perfect righteousness.
I will answer your detailed posts, but will just say the argument concerns whether dispensationalism is a valid interpretation system.
James Stuart Russell, The Parousia: The New Testament Doctrine of Christ’s Second Coming.
Summary: Since Peter claims that the “end of all things is at hand”, he is referring not to an event in the distant future, but to something quite imminent. It was the literal destruction of the land of Jerusalem (earth) and its leadership (heavens), also Jesus’ meaning (Mk 13).
1. (Addressing 2 Peter 3:7,10-12) “A little reflection, however, and a better acquaintance with the symbolic language of prophecy, will be sufficient to modify such a conclusion [a literal interpretation], and to lead to an interpretation more in accordance with the analogy of similar descriptions in the prophetic writings.
First, it is evident on the face of the question that this universal conflagration, as it may be called, was regarded by the apostle as on the eve of taking place,---‘The end of all things is at hand’ (1 Pet. iv. 7). The consummation was so near that it is described as an event to be ‘looked for, and hastened unto’ (ver. 12.) It follows, therefore, that it could not be the literal destruction or dissolution of the globe and the created universe concerning which the spirit of prophecy here speaks. But that there was at the moment when this epistle was written an awful and almost immediate catastrophe impending; that the long-predicted ‘day of the Lord’ was actually at hand; that the day did come, both speedily and suddenly; that it came ‘as a thief in the night;’ that a fiery deluge of wrath and judgment overwhelmed the guilty land and nation of Israel, destroying and dissolving its earthly things and its heavenly things, that is to say, its temporal and spiritual institutions,---is a fact indelibly imprinted on the page of history. The time for the fulfillment of these predictions was now come, and when the apostle wrote it was to declare that it was the ‘last time,’ and the very taunts of the scoffers were verifying the fact. We are therefore brought to the inevitable conclusion that it was the final catastrophe of Judea and Jerusalem, predicted by our Lord in His prophecy on the Mount of Olives and so frequently referred to by the apostles, to which St. Peter alludes in the symbolic imagery which seems to imply the dissolution of the material universe.
Secondly, we must interpret these symbols according to the analogy of Scripture. The language of prophecy is the language of poetry, and is not to be taken in a strictly literal sense. Happily there is no lack of parallel descriptions in the ancient prophets, and there is scarcely a figure here used by St. Peter of which we may not find examples in the Old Testament, and thus be furnished with a key to the meaning of like symbols in the New.
http://www.preteristcentral.com/pdf/pdf books/1878_russel_parousia.pdf
2 Peter 3:3 begins with “scoffers” who forget the Noahic deluge, a celestial (sky) and terrestrial (earth) catastrophe. Peter relates this prior destruction to a future one, which differs by using fire rather than water. This second destruction will set the heavens (sky) on fire, and heavenly bodies will melt (3:12), as “we are waiting for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells” (3:13).
1. A methodology has already been assumed, which discounts predictive prophecy relative to our day.
2. An ecclesiology has been assumed, in that the relevance of Israel as a people has been completely, their special status and biblical promises totally relegated to the established believing church of Jews and Gentiles. Therefore destructive judgment predicted has already occurred in history, namely the 70AD destruction of Jerusalem which resulted in the absolute cessation of the Mosaic temple cultus.
3. A Christology has been assumed, in that Jesus has become the ultimate sacrifice and priest, the temple system becoming obsolete.
However,
1. To this day, no such conflagration has yet occurred. We are quite removed historically from Peter, who claimed that the event was at hand.
2. Although “heavens and earth” can and do mean the literal universe, at least as far as the Biblical writers understood and meant it to be understood, it is possible that Peter was using symbolic language.
3. Objection - that God’s creation of the heavens and earth was not figurative but literal; that Noah’s flood, no matter the extent, was also literal. Why then would Peter cite two literal events to undergird his figurative language? Wouldn’t it rather muddy the waters?
Summary: Since Peter claims that the “end of all things is at hand”, he is referring not to an event in the distant future, but to something quite imminent. It was the literal destruction of the land of Jerusalem (earth) and its leadership (heavens), also Jesus’ meaning (Mk 13).
1. (Addressing 2 Peter 3:7,10-12) “A little reflection, however, and a better acquaintance with the symbolic language of prophecy, will be sufficient to modify such a conclusion [a literal interpretation], and to lead to an interpretation more in accordance with the analogy of similar descriptions in the prophetic writings.
First, it is evident on the face of the question that this universal conflagration, as it may be called, was regarded by the apostle as on the eve of taking place,---‘The end of all things is at hand’ (1 Pet. iv. 7). The consummation was so near that it is described as an event to be ‘looked for, and hastened unto’ (ver. 12.) It follows, therefore, that it could not be the literal destruction or dissolution of the globe and the created universe concerning which the spirit of prophecy here speaks. But that there was at the moment when this epistle was written an awful and almost immediate catastrophe impending; that the long-predicted ‘day of the Lord’ was actually at hand; that the day did come, both speedily and suddenly; that it came ‘as a thief in the night;’ that a fiery deluge of wrath and judgment overwhelmed the guilty land and nation of Israel, destroying and dissolving its earthly things and its heavenly things, that is to say, its temporal and spiritual institutions,---is a fact indelibly imprinted on the page of history. The time for the fulfillment of these predictions was now come, and when the apostle wrote it was to declare that it was the ‘last time,’ and the very taunts of the scoffers were verifying the fact. We are therefore brought to the inevitable conclusion that it was the final catastrophe of Judea and Jerusalem, predicted by our Lord in His prophecy on the Mount of Olives and so frequently referred to by the apostles, to which St. Peter alludes in the symbolic imagery which seems to imply the dissolution of the material universe.
Secondly, we must interpret these symbols according to the analogy of Scripture. The language of prophecy is the language of poetry, and is not to be taken in a strictly literal sense. Happily there is no lack of parallel descriptions in the ancient prophets, and there is scarcely a figure here used by St. Peter of which we may not find examples in the Old Testament, and thus be furnished with a key to the meaning of like symbols in the New.
http://www.preteristcentral.com/pdf/pdf books/1878_russel_parousia.pdf
2 Peter 3:3 begins with “scoffers” who forget the Noahic deluge, a celestial (sky) and terrestrial (earth) catastrophe. Peter relates this prior destruction to a future one, which differs by using fire rather than water. This second destruction will set the heavens (sky) on fire, and heavenly bodies will melt (3:12), as “we are waiting for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells” (3:13).
1. A methodology has already been assumed, which discounts predictive prophecy relative to our day.
2. An ecclesiology has been assumed, in that the relevance of Israel as a people has been completely, their special status and biblical promises totally relegated to the established believing church of Jews and Gentiles. Therefore destructive judgment predicted has already occurred in history, namely the 70AD destruction of Jerusalem which resulted in the absolute cessation of the Mosaic temple cultus.
3. A Christology has been assumed, in that Jesus has become the ultimate sacrifice and priest, the temple system becoming obsolete.
However,
1. To this day, no such conflagration has yet occurred. We are quite removed historically from Peter, who claimed that the event was at hand.
2. Although “heavens and earth” can and do mean the literal universe, at least as far as the Biblical writers understood and meant it to be understood, it is possible that Peter was using symbolic language.
3. Objection - that God’s creation of the heavens and earth was not figurative but literal; that Noah’s flood, no matter the extent, was also literal. Why then would Peter cite two literal events to undergird his figurative language? Wouldn’t it rather muddy the waters?
9:24 might refer to Jesus, since the 70 weeks refers to the period of time until Jesus appeared, some 400 years; since Jesus made an end of sins, reconciled iniquity, and brought in everlasting righteousness through his incarnation, death and resurrection; since vision and prophecy ceased after the time of Jesus’ apostles; and since Jesus was anointed with the Holy Spirit, as a temple, as well as his followers.
9:25 seems to refer to Cyrus’ decree and Nehemiah’s restorations. Would seven weeks here mean the restoration of the line of kings in Trans-Jordan, who were then “cut-off” (9:26) by the Hasmonean dynasty?
9:25 might also refer to the rebuilding of Jerusalem during Jesus’ days directed by the Herods.
9:26, then, would mean that Jesus was “cut off”, ascended to heaven. Meanwhile, “the people of the prince to come who destroyed the city and the sanctuary” would be the general Titus, sent by whichever Roman Emperor ruled in 67-70 AD (Nero). The people to come were Romans, which included everyone in that Empire including their culture and outlook.
9:27, but, historically, who confirmed a covenant with many for “one week”? Although because of the temple’s destruction sacrifice and oblation did cease.
Reading Goldingay’s comments makes one feel that mainstream Protestantism is missing out by expunging Maccabees from the Scriptures. It is just as meaningful as Esther for history, and could help clear up our misunderstanding that nothing relevant happened from Malachi to Matthew.
Word Daniel John Goldingay:
By the time the seventy sevens end, six things are to be achieved for people and sacred city. The concern of v 24 is thus Israel and Jerusalem. It does not have a worldwide perspective; it is not speaking of the end of all history, or of the sin of the whole world. Daniel is returning to “salvation history” from the secular history that dominated chaps. 7–8 and will dominate chaps. 10–12. His moving between these two reflects the fact that both are of God. God is the God of all history, but nature and grace are not simply identified; there are special purposes he is achieving in the history of Israel. God is the God of Israel’s history, but nature and grace are not to be sundered; he purposes to reign in all history.
The anointing of a most sacred place
see n. 24.j-j) again recalls the treading down and vindication of the sacred place () in 8:13–14. The tent of meeting, the altar, and associated objects had been anointed to consecrate them at the beginning (Exod 30:26–29; 40:9–11; cf. also 29:36–37, where , , and appear together [Doukhan, AUSS 17 (1979) 11–12]). They are now anointed to reconsecrate them after their defiling (cf. the account in 1 Macc 4:36–59). There are no specific grounds for seeing a secondary reference to a most sacred people (against Lacocque) or to a most sacred one or “messiah.”
A coherent understanding of v 24 emerges, then, if we take it as a restatement of the visionary promises of chap. 8. Like that vision, it looks forward from the time of Daniel himself to the Antiochene crisis, and promises God’s deliverance. There is no reason to refer it exegetically to the first or second coming of Christ.
If the seventy sevens commence about the time when the exile begins, and the anointed ruler appears after the first seven sevens, then the term likely refers either to Zerubbabel or Joshua, “sons of oil” according to Zech 4:14.
Talk of devastation, battle, and desolation (v 26) reflects the seriousness of the trouble brought to people, city, and temple by the combined force of heathen ruler(s) and usurper priest(s). They are described at length in 1 Macc 1–4 and 2 Macc 4–5, and are reflected in the early Maccabean messianic oracle Sib. Or. 3.265–94, which overtly refers to the events of the exilic period, including the destruction of the temple, but covertly refers to the Antiochene crisis
More likely it refers to the covenant between reformist Jews and Gentiles reported in 1 Macc 1:11. The multitude is presumably still the body of (faithful) Jews (see n. 9:27.b). If so, the idea of the clause is that the covenant made between the reformist Jews and the Greeks will last for seven years, to the hurt of the conservative Jews. 1 Macc 1:11 implicitly associates this covenant with the beginning of Antiochus’s reign in 175 B.C., but it is hazardous to infer that the seventieth seven is the period that begins then, so that the events of the actual crisis belong to a further seven.
Halfway through this final seven the worship prescribed by the Torah will cease and be replaced by a repellent alternative (cf. 1 Macc 1:41–59). Sacrifice and offering covers on the one hand the bloody sacrifices involving the death of an animal, on the other the offering of grain, oil, and wine, and thus the total system of sacrifice and offering. To describe its replacement, Gabriel uses a variant on the term used in 8:13, the desolating rebellion (). Here the expression is “a desolating abomination” see n. 27.f). replaces , perhaps because its numerical value is 490.
9:25 seems to refer to Cyrus’ decree and Nehemiah’s restorations. Would seven weeks here mean the restoration of the line of kings in Trans-Jordan, who were then “cut-off” (9:26) by the Hasmonean dynasty?
9:25 might also refer to the rebuilding of Jerusalem during Jesus’ days directed by the Herods.
9:26, then, would mean that Jesus was “cut off”, ascended to heaven. Meanwhile, “the people of the prince to come who destroyed the city and the sanctuary” would be the general Titus, sent by whichever Roman Emperor ruled in 67-70 AD (Nero). The people to come were Romans, which included everyone in that Empire including their culture and outlook.
9:27, but, historically, who confirmed a covenant with many for “one week”? Although because of the temple’s destruction sacrifice and oblation did cease.
Reading Goldingay’s comments makes one feel that mainstream Protestantism is missing out by expunging Maccabees from the Scriptures. It is just as meaningful as Esther for history, and could help clear up our misunderstanding that nothing relevant happened from Malachi to Matthew.
Word Daniel John Goldingay:
By the time the seventy sevens end, six things are to be achieved for people and sacred city. The concern of v 24 is thus Israel and Jerusalem. It does not have a worldwide perspective; it is not speaking of the end of all history, or of the sin of the whole world. Daniel is returning to “salvation history” from the secular history that dominated chaps. 7–8 and will dominate chaps. 10–12. His moving between these two reflects the fact that both are of God. God is the God of all history, but nature and grace are not simply identified; there are special purposes he is achieving in the history of Israel. God is the God of Israel’s history, but nature and grace are not to be sundered; he purposes to reign in all history.
The anointing of a most sacred place
see n. 24.j-j) again recalls the treading down and vindication of the sacred place () in 8:13–14. The tent of meeting, the altar, and associated objects had been anointed to consecrate them at the beginning (Exod 30:26–29; 40:9–11; cf. also 29:36–37, where , , and appear together [Doukhan, AUSS 17 (1979) 11–12]). They are now anointed to reconsecrate them after their defiling (cf. the account in 1 Macc 4:36–59). There are no specific grounds for seeing a secondary reference to a most sacred people (against Lacocque) or to a most sacred one or “messiah.”A coherent understanding of v 24 emerges, then, if we take it as a restatement of the visionary promises of chap. 8. Like that vision, it looks forward from the time of Daniel himself to the Antiochene crisis, and promises God’s deliverance. There is no reason to refer it exegetically to the first or second coming of Christ.
If the seventy sevens commence about the time when the exile begins, and the anointed ruler appears after the first seven sevens, then the term likely refers either to Zerubbabel or Joshua, “sons of oil” according to Zech 4:14.
Talk of devastation, battle, and desolation (v 26) reflects the seriousness of the trouble brought to people, city, and temple by the combined force of heathen ruler(s) and usurper priest(s). They are described at length in 1 Macc 1–4 and 2 Macc 4–5, and are reflected in the early Maccabean messianic oracle Sib. Or. 3.265–94, which overtly refers to the events of the exilic period, including the destruction of the temple, but covertly refers to the Antiochene crisis
More likely it refers to the covenant between reformist Jews and Gentiles reported in 1 Macc 1:11. The multitude is presumably still the body of (faithful) Jews (see n. 9:27.b). If so, the idea of the clause is that the covenant made between the reformist Jews and the Greeks will last for seven years, to the hurt of the conservative Jews. 1 Macc 1:11 implicitly associates this covenant with the beginning of Antiochus’s reign in 175 B.C., but it is hazardous to infer that the seventieth seven is the period that begins then, so that the events of the actual crisis belong to a further seven.
Halfway through this final seven the worship prescribed by the Torah will cease and be replaced by a repellent alternative (cf. 1 Macc 1:41–59). Sacrifice and offering covers on the one hand the bloody sacrifices involving the death of an animal, on the other the offering of grain, oil, and wine, and thus the total system of sacrifice and offering. To describe its replacement, Gabriel uses a variant on the term used in 8:13, the desolating rebellion (). Here the expression is “a desolating abomination”
see n. 27.f). replaces , perhaps because its numerical value is 490.
The question is whether Peter is discussing Jesus' prophecies that were addressed to the Jews who heard & rejected him, whose "last days" would end with the destruction, or giving a general warning regarding the situation immediately before Jesus' return for resurrection & judgment.
Jesus did very specifically prophecy destruction, & his disciples associated that with his coming & the end of the age. Mat. 24:2-3. He proceeded to give many signs relating to that coming, saying that all would happen before this generation had passed away. Mat. 24:34.
He then proceeds, from v. 35 to speak of the passing of heaven & earth, that would not have warning signs. Be ready, watch & pray. That of, course, relates to all believers down the ages, including us.
In Mat. 23 he very specifically warned this generation of the Scribes & Pharisees of their coming judgment.
It seems clear that the survivors of this generation were the scoffers who so far had escaped Jesus' coming against themselves in judgment. Their fathers - the older ones who had led the rejection of Jesus - had indeed fallen asleep. They were scoffing against their only Saviour, refusing to accept that God was acting in longsuffering, who was giving them time to repent.
The Day/Millennium of v. 8 is a time for grace & repentance, & it will certainly end according to his promise/warning/prophecy of destruction.
Agreed.
All the redeemed, dead & alive, will be caught up with the Lord & be glorified with their Saviour. The separate rapture doctrine is not explicit in Scripture, but is a line of interpretation read into Scripture.
I'm separating his coming (AD 70) from his return at the passing of heaven & earth in final judgment. You are separating his coming from a rapture & I see no Biblical justification for that, certainly not in 2 Peter 3.
If you look at the many references to "this generation" in the Gospels, you will see that they are addressed to Jesus' contemporaries, his enemies. If the warning applies only to some unknown future generation then the warning is meaningless. Mat. 24:1-34 is very specifically concerning the AD 70 destruction - see also Mark 13 Luke 21.
The interpretation of Revelation is beyond the scope of this thread. I do not see a future millennium in 2 Peter 3, only a then present day/millennium being an indefinite time allowing repentance before the judgment of the scoffers.
Both speak of the event prophesied not only by Christ, but by Prophecy of the Old and New Testaments.
I think we both know what the subject is, so both terms are acceptable and speak of the same event.
And the problem with that is that Christ did not return in AD70.
The Return in view is this:
Revelation 19:11
King James Version (KJV)
11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
Zechariah 14:1-4
King James Version (KJV)
14 Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.
2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
3 Then shall the Lord go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
Following His Return we are told that there will be yet another thousand years:
Revelation 20:4-6
King James Version (KJV)
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
We are no some 1900 years past AD70, and the new heavens and new Earth described in Revelation 21-22 has not yet been made manifest.
This...
2 Peter 3:8-9
King James Version (KJV)
8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
...is not Peter's way of advising people to interpret Prophecy differently than it has always been interpreted, it merely makes the point that the Lord can afford to be long-suffering because time is irrelevant to Him.
Until Christ returns (at His Second Coming), and establishes the thousand year Kingdom (which is the Kingdom promises to Israel, and God will keep His promises to the letter) we cannot consider Prophecy to be fulfilled.
Actually the thread calls into question the Presterist view.
I am not a Dispensationalist, I am simply a Bible Student. My Doctrine may be found in agreement with a Dispensational view, but that doesn't make me one any more than believing in the Trinity makes me a Catholic.
God bless.
Covenanter said: ↑
In this & subsequent replies, you have used the term "return" whereas in the 2 Peter 3 context, I have used the term "coming."
Note how Peter uses "coming" -
The same Greek word parousia is used for coming, also in Mat. 24. Peter died before the destruction, but clearly he did not doubt the imminent coming of the Lord according to the Mat. 24 prophecies. In 2 Peter 1, Peter is referring to the physical coming/presence of the Lord during his incarnation, when they saw him in person, & also saw his glory at the transfiguration.
Does the presence of Jesus require his visible appearance? No. He is with us always, & with us when we gather in his name.
Regarding his AD 70 coming, it would be evident by the occurrence of the prophesied destruction. The scoffers would see it as it occurred. In the OT, God used pagan nations to judge Israel, when Israel turned away from God. Note particularly Hab. 1, & the Chaldeans. Note also Hab. 2, when the believers would live through that devastation by faith. A verse taken up by Paul with tremendous force. Hebrews 11 shows that the faithful often suffered for their faith, seeing him who is invisible. Heb. 11:27
Jesus came as prophesied in AD 70, & destroyed Jerusalem & the temple by the hand of the Romans.
As for your reference to Daniel 9, the 70 weeks/490 years ended in the 30s, when Stephen denounced the apostate Jewish leaders as uncircumcised & the Gospel was opened to Gentiles without circumcision. We're not waiting for the 70th week.
In this & subsequent replies, you have used the term "return" whereas in the 2 Peter 3 context, I have used the term "coming."
Note how Peter uses "coming" -
2 Peter 1:16
For we did not follow cunningly devised fables when we made known to you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of His majesty.
2 Peter 3:4
and saying, “Where is the promise of His coming? For since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of creation.”
2 Peter 3:12
looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be dissolved, being on fire, and the elements will melt with fervent heat?
For we did not follow cunningly devised fables when we made known to you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of His majesty.
2 Peter 3:4
and saying, “Where is the promise of His coming? For since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of creation.”
2 Peter 3:12
looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be dissolved, being on fire, and the elements will melt with fervent heat?
The same Greek word parousia is used for coming, also in Mat. 24. Peter died before the destruction, but clearly he did not doubt the imminent coming of the Lord according to the Mat. 24 prophecies. In 2 Peter 1, Peter is referring to the physical coming/presence of the Lord during his incarnation, when they saw him in person, & also saw his glory at the transfiguration.
Does the presence of Jesus require his visible appearance? No. He is with us always, & with us when we gather in his name.
Regarding his AD 70 coming, it would be evident by the occurrence of the prophesied destruction. The scoffers would see it as it occurred. In the OT, God used pagan nations to judge Israel, when Israel turned away from God. Note particularly Hab. 1, & the Chaldeans. Note also Hab. 2, when the believers would live through that devastation by faith. A verse taken up by Paul with tremendous force. Hebrews 11 shows that the faithful often suffered for their faith, seeing him who is invisible. Heb. 11:27
Jesus came as prophesied in AD 70, & destroyed Jerusalem & the temple by the hand of the Romans.
As for your reference to Daniel 9, the 70 weeks/490 years ended in the 30s, when Stephen denounced the apostate Jewish leaders as uncircumcised & the Gospel was opened to Gentiles without circumcision. We're not waiting for the 70th week.
You nullify your proof-texts by saying:
If you make the tribulation of AD70 The Tribulation, then of necessity you must have Christ's literal return, which is seen in Zechariah 14 (already given) as well as Revelation 19 (already given).
Every eye shall see Him:
Revelation 1:7
King James Version (KJV)
7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.
This shows all kindreds of the earth seeing Him and wailing, which is not the reaction of the redeemed of Christ.
Secondly, we see the Supper of the Great God:
Revelation 19:17-21
King James Version (KJV)
17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;
18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.
19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.
This is prophesied in the Old Testament as well:
Ezekiel 39
King James Version (KJV)
39 Therefore, thou son of man, prophesy against Gog, and say, Thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I am against thee, O Gog, the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal:
2 And I will turn thee back, and leave but the sixth part of thee, and will cause thee to come up from the north parts, and will bring thee upon the mountains of Israel:
3 And I will smite thy bow out of thy left hand, and will cause thine arrows to fall out of thy right hand.
4 Thou shalt fall upon the mountains of Israel, thou, and all thy bands, and the people that is with thee: I will give thee unto the ravenous birds of every sort, and to the beasts of the field to be devoured.
And there is a physical time frame given after this event (as it is in Revelation 19 after the Return of Christ):
5 Thou shalt fall upon the open field: for I have spoken it, saith the Lord God.
6 And I will send a fire on Magog, and among them that dwell carelessly in the isles: and they shall know that I am the Lord.
7 So will I make my holy name known in the midst of my people Israel; and I will not let them pollute my holy name any more: and the heathen shall know that I am the Lord, the Holy One in Israel.
8 Behold, it is come, and it is done, saith the Lord God; this is the day whereof I have spoken.
9 And they that dwell in the cities of Israel shall go forth, and shall set on fire and burn the weapons, both the shields and the bucklers, the bows and the arrows, and the handstaves, and the spears, and they shall burn them with fire seven years:
We also see the Lord verifying a physical time-frame after His Return:
Luke 17:24-30
King James Version (KJV)
24 For as the lightning, that lighteneth out of the one part under heaven, shineth unto the other part under heaven; so shall also the Son of man be in his day.
25 But first must he suffer many things, and be rejected of this generation.
26 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.
27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.
28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;
29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.
The point being made here is that when the Son of Man returns, it will be like the judgments given for example, and what happened then?
The wicked were destroyed and the righteous lived on...physically.
Let's keep going, because we are going to see mention of the Supper of the Great God again:
Luke 17:31-37
King James Version (KJV)
31 In that day, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back.
32 Remember Lot's wife.
33 Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it.
34 I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.
35 Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
36 Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
37 And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together.
The entire context speaks of physical judgment on unbelievers. Note v.33 where physical death is clearly in view.
Note in v.37 where physical death is again clear because in view are carcasses and carrion fowl. This is in answer to "Where shall they be taken to (we wouldn't see this as asking where they are left, that is obvious, wherever they are)?"
These passages show the Return of the Lord, and there is a physical context after this return.
It cannot be confused to that which takes place after the Millennial Kingdom...
Revelation 20:7-11
King James Version (KJV)
7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
See how consistent Prophecy is? If we understand it as all Prophecy is understood? Being fulfilled to the jot and tittle?
There is no time after the judgment following the Millennial Kingdom, the universe passes away and the Great White Throne Judgment takes place, at which time all of the dead are raised and cast into Hell (no-one who has eternal life through Christ will suffer that judgment, only the dead, who never obtained life through Christ).
Continued...
Actually it does, in every prophecy uttered of His Return, as well as in the parables:
Luke 19:10-13
King James Version (KJV)
10 For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost.
11 And as they heard these things, he added and spake a parable, because he was nigh to Jerusalem, and because they thought that the kingdom of God should immediately appear.
12 He said therefore, A certain nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom, and to return.
13 And he called his ten servants, and delivered them ten pounds, and said unto them, Occupy till I come.
As I said, "return" and "come(ing again)" refer to the same prophetic event.
I am sure you are familiar enough with the parables dealing with the "far country" that I need not post those parables, so will just say that here we see reference to His death (v.11, "nigh unto Jerusalem), hence His parable dealing with His leaving and...
...Return.
Continued...
There was no AD "coming."
Every eye shall see that, Covenanter.
And not one eye saw Christ return.
The scoffers were the ones who destroyed the city.
This is true, and this will be true for the most part in the Tribulation:
Revelation 11
King James Version (KJV)
1 And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.
2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.
However, the issue at hand is the Return of Christ.
Prophecy makes it clear enough, which is why most look for Christ to Return. But, only those who nullify parts of Prophecy deny that this will be a return with His presence on this earth.
And one primary point made in Prophecy concerning Christ's Return is that all unbelievers will be destroyed. That is why the Lord taught "Except a man be born again he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God. Nicodemus was not privy to the Mystery of the Gospel of Jesus Christ (as was no man in the Age of Law), and by that I mean he was not given understanding as you and I have. Christ ministered to him under the Law within the framework of the revelation provided men at that time.
That is why we see all unbelievers (Goats) destroyed in the Sheep and Goat Judgment (to be distinguished from he Great White Throne Judgment) destroyed in Matthew 25, which follows the teaching of the Tribulation.
And again...
Matthew 24:37-39
King James Version (KJV)
37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
...the Return of Christ is demanded when this is fulfilled.
It was not fulfilled in AD70.
Now were all unbelievers destroyed.
Nor was the Kingdom established.
Continued...
He didn't see Him, lol:
Hebrews 11:1
King James Version (KJV)
11 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
Romans 8:24 King James Version (KJV)
24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?
Then we would have seen this:
Daniel 12:7-12
King James Version (KJV)
7 And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.
8 And I heard, but I understood not: then said I, O my Lord, what shall be the end of these things?
9 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.
10 Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.
11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.
12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.
In view is a 75 day period...after the end of the Tribulation, which has a seven year period (obvious from a 3 1/2 year ministry of the Two Witnesses and a 3 1/2 year empowerment of Antichrist which cannot be concurrent else we nullify the description of the Two Witnesses who cannot be harmed during their ministry).
That cannot be correlated to the destruction of the wicked in Revelation 20.
So the reason why AD 70 cannot possibly be the fulfillment of Christ's prophesy is that we do not see Christ's Return, and there is no conclusion to the prophecies associated with those events.
Not possible.
Because after the Tribulation Christ returns, that is how all Prophecy foretells it. I would post them all but...
Again, Prophecy is nullified in such a view. Israel will receive the promises given them by God as a nation, and that includes salvation and the Kingdom:
Romans 11; 25-27
King James Version (KJV)
11 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
Paul teaches that Israel as a Nation will be saved, and that will take place during the Tribulation, when the fullness of the Gentiles will have come in.
They will be brought into relationship with God through the New Covenant which was promised to them...as a Nation.
We are.
We cannot have Prophecy fulfilled until all elements are fulfilled. We can have a partial fulfillment, as we see in Antiochus Epiphanes, and perhaps in Nero in AD70, but, the ultimate fulfillment is laid out for us in easy to understand terms in Revelation. Only when one nullifies parts of Prophecy to make their System work can they miss the consistency of Prophecy.
The Rapture is coming.
The Tribulation is coming.
The Millennial Kingdom is coming.
The Great White Throne is coming.
And praise God...the Eternal State is coming.
God bless.
Interesting that you should note the use of the word parousia. The truth is, the meaning of parousia disproves the preterist belief that Jesus came spiritually in AD 70. It is a word used for a physical appearance, not for some nebulous spiritual appearance. Christ will come back physically in the future. He did not come back "spiritually" in AD 70.
Note the physical comings or presence in these passages that use parousia:
1Co 16:17 I am glad of the coming of Stephanas and Fortunatus and Achaicus: for that which was lacking on your part they have supplied.
2Co 7:6 Nevertheless God, that comforteth those that are cast down, comforted us by the coming of Titus;
2Co 7:7 And not by his coming only, but by the consolation wherewith he was comforted in you, when he told us your earnest desire, your mourning, your fervent mind toward me; so that I rejoiced the more.
2Co 10:10 For [his] letters, say they, are weighty and powerful; but his bodily presence is weak, and his speech contemptible.
Php 1:26 That your rejoicing may be more abundant in Jesus Christ for me by my coming to you again.
Php 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
2Pe 1:16 For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty.
The Second Coming is THE decisive act in all of history, in that the entire earth and all who are alive shall know it happened, and all things promised by God to be done will then get finally done!
That is true, He came back "spiritually" at Pentecost:
John 14:15-18
King James Version (KJV)
15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.
16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.
John 14:20-23
King James Version (KJV)
20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.
21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
22 Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world?
23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.
I've always wondered how a "spiritual return" could possibly be embraced. Anyone care to present why if they take that view?
God bless.
- Status