Israel?

[1689Dave]

Do you think today’s State of Israel is Biblical Israel? If so, why?

I believe circumcision made Abraham’s 300+ soldiers and their families his covenant seed. None of whom descended from him. Ishmael was his only blood relative then. And when Abraham excommunicated Ishmael and Hagar, only the covenant seed remained.

Later, any born of Isaac who remained uncircumcised remained cut off from Israel until circumcised. So circumcision and solidarity with the community made one a physical member of Israel.

When Jesus abolished circumcision on the cross, he removed the rite that made one a physical member of Israel. Only those united to Christ by faith like Abraham remained. God broke off the unbelievers replacing them with believing gentiles.

Therefore, who is Biblical Israel? Those believers who accepted Jesus as King, or those unbelievers who rejected him?

Any thoughts or rebuttals appreciated.

 

[Deacon]

The NT uses the term "Israel" in a number of different ways; context prevails.

I believe Israel still has a part to play in future biblical history.
Whether the current government of Israel will be a part of that is uncertain.

Rob

 

[1689Dave]

The NT uses the term "Israel" in a number of different ways; context prevails.

I believe Israel still has a part to play in future biblical history.
Whether the current government of Israel will be a part of that is uncertain.

Thanks Rob. In my studies circumcision made on a physical member of Israel. When Jesus abolished circumcision, he phased physical Israel out completely leaving only spiritual Israel, Paul, Peter, John and other believers etc. All under Christ. If what I believe is true, the State of Israel is not biblical Israel and only another State like Russia or Palestine, France etc.

 

[kyredneck]

who is Biblical Israel?

2 Beware of the dogs, beware of the evil workers, beware of the concision:
3 for we are the circumcision, who worship by the Spirit of God, and glory in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh: Phil 3

 

[kyredneck]

the State of Israel is not biblical Israel

It may be biblical in the sense of Satan using it to deceive the Gentiles. The loosing of Satan may well have been manifested in their emancipation. Untold millions have been deceived and perished directly from Marxism and Zionism alone since then.

 

[church mouse guy]

Thanks Rob. In my studies circumcision made on a physical member of Israel. When Jesus abolished circumcision, he phased physical Israel out completely leaving only spiritual Israel, Paul, Peter, John and other believers etc. All under Christ. If what I believe is true, the State of Israel is not biblical Israel and only another State like Russia or Palestine, France etc.

Liberal theology like yours says that God is a liar so why should I care about a pack of lies when I can get those from the bosses at work?

 

[Reynolds]

Thanks Rob. In my studies circumcision made on a physical member of Israel. When Jesus abolished circumcision, he phased physical Israel out completely leaving only spiritual Israel, Paul, Peter, John and other believers etc. All under Christ. If what I believe is true, the State of Israel is not biblical Israel and only another State like Russia or Palestine, France etc.

As stated earlier, context is key. If you look at Revelation and Daniel, it is obvious God is dealing with a physical state of Israel. He even names them by tribes.

 

[TCassidy]

Jesus' only comment about circumcision was favorable: It was part of the Law of Moses, and it was so important that it could be done on the Sabbath

John 7:22 Moses has given you circumcision (not that it is of Moses, but of the fathers), and on the Sabbath you circumcise a boy.
23 If a boy receives circumcision on the Sabbath, that the law of Moses may not be broken, are you angry with me, because I made a man completely healthy on the Sabbath?
24 Don’t judge according to appearance, but judge righteous judgment.”

 

[Calypsis4]

Thanks Rob. In my studies circumcision made on a physical member of Israel. When Jesus abolished circumcision, he phased physical Israel out completely leaving only spiritual Israel, Paul, Peter, John and other believers etc. All under Christ. If what I believe is true, the State of Israel is not biblical Israel and only another State like Russia or Palestine, France etc.

You say, "When Jesus abolished circumcision, he phased physical Israel out completely leaving only spiritual Israel"

Oh? Tell us, which of the twelve tribes do you belong to? Then prove it by your family genealogy.

What is then the name of the gentile who will sit upon the Throne of David (a prophecy that has not yet been fulfilled).

What shall we do with the promise in Ezekiel concerning the land and the boundaries that Israel will be given. Ezek. 47:13-22.

Why, if the modern state of Israel is not the object of the Abrahamic covenant have they won every single battle against all of their Arab neighbors since 1948?

 

[1689Dave]

You say, "When Jesus abolished circumcision, he phased physical Israel out completely leaving only spiritual Israel"

This is correct. Circumcision made one a physical member of Israel, not blood. Because Isaac's blood relatives were cut of from Israel, made gentiles, unless circumcised Genesis 17:14. Normally on their 8th day. Many gentiles became Jews also through circumcision Esther 8:17. When Jesus abolished circumcision on the cross Colossians 2:14, nothing remained to make one a Physical member of Israel. Israel continued under Jesus with those circumcised in heart, that is believers like Abraham. God broke off the unbelievers and replaced them with believing gentiles (per Romans 11).Today's physical Israel are gentiles who practice jewish customs and rituals, calling themselves Israel.

 

[1689Dave]

As stated earlier, context is key. If you look at Revelation and Daniel, it is obvious God is dealing with a physical state of Israel. He even names them by tribes.

God removed unbelievers from Israel in Romans 11, and grafted believing gentiles into their place. Only those who accepted Jesus remained Israel.

 

[1689Dave]

Liberal theology like yours says that God is a liar so why should I care about a pack of lies when I can get those from the bosses at work?

I'll bet I'm more conservative than you. God removed unbelievers from Israel in Romans 11, and replaced the with believing gentiles. Only those who accepted Jesus remained Israel.

 

[church mouse guy]

I'll bet I'm more conservative than you. God removed unbelievers from Israel in Romans 11, and replaced the with believing gentiles. Only those who accepted Jesus remained Israel.

Looks like God lied to Abraham and Abraham was a big sucker in your theology. I think that you are trying to get me to believe in what you do but since you think that it is all a bunch of lies, why should I believe in a religion of lies? Aren't you saying that Genesis 17 is a lie?

Genesis 17:6-9 (KJV) And I will make thee exceeding fruitful, and I will make nations of thee, and kings shall come out of thee. And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee. And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God. And God said unto Abraham, Thou shalt keep my covenant therefore, thou, and thy seed after thee in their generations.

 

[1689Dave]

Looks like God lied to Abraham and Abraham was a big sucker in your theology. I think that you are trying to get me to believe in what you do but since you think that it is all a bunch of lies, why should I believe in a religion of lies? Aren't you saying that Genesis 17 is a lie?

Genesis 17:6-9 (KJV) And I will make thee exceeding fruitful, and I will make nations of thee, and kings shall come out of thee. And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee. And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God. And God said unto Abraham, Thou shalt keep my covenant therefore, thou, and thy seed after thee in their generations.

Remember Paul says; “Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed. For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sara shall have a son.” (Romans 9:6–9) (KJV 1900)

And: “And if ye be Christ’s, then are ye Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.” (Galatians 3:29) (KJV 1900)

And: “Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.” (Galatians 3:16) (KJV 1900)

 

[church mouse guy]

Remember Paul says; “Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed. For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sara shall have a son.” (Romans 9:6–9) (KJV 1900)

And: “And if ye be Christ’s, then are ye Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.” (Galatians 3:29) (KJV 1900)

And: “Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.” (Galatians 3:16) (KJV 1900)

So God lied to the sucker Abraham in Genesis 17 when God "promised" an everlasting covenant? Why that makes the entire Scripture a pack of lies doesn't it? And that makes what you are saying to the gentiles mean until the next big thing, when the lie to you will be revealed?

 

[1689Dave]

So God lied to the sucker Abraham in Genesis 17 when God "promised" an everlasting covenant? Why that makes the entire Scripture a pack of lies doesn't it? And that makes what you are saying to the gentiles mean until the next big thing, when the lie to you will be revealed?

The promise to Abraham and his seed Christ, and us who believe in Christ is unconditional and eternal. The promise also applied to his physical unbelieving seed who were always wicked. BUT it was conditional, earthly, temporal and forfeited many, many times over because of their wickedness.

Abraham and the faithfull among Israel needed no law. You did not need to tell them not to steal. But the wicked needed law to control them.

“Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;” (1 Timothy 1:9–10) (KJV 1900)

So the temporal earthly promises were conditional and applied only to these. But to Abraham and the Faithful the promises were unconditional and eternal.

 

[church mouse guy]

The promise to Abraham and his seed Christ, and us who believe in Christ is unconditional and eternal. The promise also applied to his physical unbelieving seed who were always wicked. BUT it was conditional, earthly, temporal and forfeited many, many times over because of their wickedness.

Abraham and the faithfull among Israel needed no law. You did not need to tell them not to steal. But the wicked needed law to control them.

“Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;” (1 Timothy 1:9–10) (KJV 1900)

So the temporal earthly promises were conditional and applied only to these. But to Abraham and the Faithful the promises were unconditional and eternal.

So God was just parsing words and lying to that sucker Abraham when God said that there was an everlasting covenant to Abraham and his seed in Genesis 17?

 

[JonShaff]

I'm not the brightest fork in the shed, but If God is Sovereign, And He Is, and God Establishes Nations and Boundaries, and He Does, Then Israel Being a Nation is a Part of God's Will--It's def not a coincidence.

 

[1689Dave]

So God was just parsing words and lying to that sucker Abraham when God said that there was an everlasting covenant to Abraham and his seed in Genesis 17?

It's easy to understand if you study the subject.

Who is Abraham's seed according to the NT?

“Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.” (Galatians 3:16) (KJV 1900)

Why did God give the OT Law to Israel?

“Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine; According to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, which was committed to my trust.” (1 Timothy 1:9–11) (KJV 1900)

Why did God remove the Old Covenant (Physical Israel) replacing it with the New Covenant?

““Indeed, a time is coming,” says the Lord, “when I will make a new covenant with the people of Israel and Judah.It will not be like the old covenant that I made with their ancestors when I delivered them from Egypt. For they violated that covenant, even though I was like a faithful husband to them,” says the Lord.“But I will make a new covenant with the whole nation of Israel after I plant them back in the land,” says the Lord. “I will put my law within them and write it on their hearts and minds. I will be their God and they will be my people.” (Jeremiah 31:31–33) (NET)

“When he speaks of a new covenant, he makes the first obsolete. Now what is growing obsolete and aging is about to disappear.” (Hebrews 8:13) (NET)

 

[1689Dave]

I'm not the brightest fork in the shed, but If God is Sovereign, And He Is, and God Establishes Nations and Boundaries, and He Does, Then Israel Being a Nation is a Part of God's Will--It's def not a coincidence.

This is true. But they are not biblical Israel...you are if you follow Christ. The State of Israel is merely another warring nation in a land grab we should not support.