Israel?

[JonShaff]

This is true. But they are not biblical Israel...you are if you follow Christ. The State of Israel is merely another warring nation in a land grab we should not support.

I do Follow Christ--He is The Obedient Servant. I'm just making a statement of consideration.

 

[church mouse guy]

I'm not the brightest fork in the shed, but If God is Sovereign, And He Is, and God Establishes Nations and Boundaries, and He Does, Then Israel Being a Nation is a Part of God's Will--It's def not a coincidence.

I think that I keep my forks in the shed, too.

 

[church mouse guy]

It's easy to understand if you study the subject.

Who is Abraham's seed according to the NT?

“Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.” (Galatians 3:16) (KJV 1900)

Why did God give the OT Law to Israel?

“Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine; According to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, which was committed to my trust.” (1 Timothy 1:9–11) (KJV 1900)

Why did God remove the Old Covenant (Physical Israel) replacing it with the New Covenant?

““Indeed, a time is coming,” says the Lord, “when I will make a new covenant with the people of Israel and Judah.It will not be like the old covenant that I made with their ancestors when I delivered them from Egypt. For they violated that covenant, even though I was like a faithful husband to them,” says the Lord.“But I will make a new covenant with the whole nation of Israel after I plant them back in the land,” says the Lord. “I will put my law within them and write it on their hearts and minds. I will be their God and they will be my people.” (Jeremiah 31:31–33) (NET)

“When he speaks of a new covenant, he makes the first obsolete. Now what is growing obsolete and aging is about to disappear.” (Hebrews 8:13) (NET)

God lied to ole Abe, didn't he?

 

[kyredneck]

Aren't you saying that Genesis 17 is a lie?

I missed that. Where? Does Genesis 17 carry some special significance for some reason? What's your point in bringing it up?

 

[1689Dave]

God lied to ole Abe, didn't he?

Not at all. But Abraham understood the promise far differently than you do. “For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.” (Hebrews 11:10) (KJV 1900)

 

[kyredneck]

So God was just parsing words and lying to that sucker Abraham when God said that there was an everlasting covenant to Abraham and his seed in Genesis 17?

Stop acting like such a jerk. You really need to review Galatians 3:

16 Now to Abraham were the promises spoken, and to his seed. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.
29 And if ye are Christ`s, then are ye Abraham`s seed, heirs according to promise. Gal 3

 

[kyredneck]

God lied to ole Abe, didn't he?

Really? The guy hasn't insinuated that at all, you're just acting like a jerk, and, you probably worship the golden calf 'physical' Israel like so many do and it upsets you to know that the scriptures expressly warns you NOT to worship 'physical' Israel.

 

[church mouse guy]

I missed that. Where? Does Genesis 17 carry some special significance for some reason? What's your point in bringing it up?

Genesis 17:7 (KJV) And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee.

 

[church mouse guy]

Stop acting like such a jerk. You really need to review Galatians 3:

16 Now to Abraham were the promises spoken, and to his seed. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.
29 And if ye are Christ`s, then are ye Abraham`s seed, heirs according to promise. Gal 3

I do not agree with you on this point of theology, but you have known that for a long time. Other than this one issue, I agree with you most of the time. I say that Scripture should be taken literally whenever possible. The answer in Genesis has a perfectly clear literal meaning. If God did not mean what He said literally, then God lied to ole Abe, who was a sucker. huh?

 

[JonShaff]

I do not agree with you on this point of theology, but you have known that for a long time. Other than this one issue, I agree with you most of the time. I say that Scripture should be taken literally whenever possible. The answer in Genesis has a perfectly clear literal meaning. If God did not mean what He said literally, then God lied to ole Abe, who was a sucker. huh?

Brother, I'm all about seeing how it pans out for Israel as a sovereign nation, But @kyredneck is right that Genesis 17:7 is fulfilled IN Christ--Christ is the Seed to whom God fulfills His Covenant.

In Other words...

Genesis 17:7 finds its fulfillment in Christ--Galatians 3:16; 29

 

[church mouse guy]

Brother, I'm all about seeing how it pans out for Israel as a sovereign nation, But @kyredneck is right that Genesis 17:7 is fulfilled IN Christ--Christ is the Seed to whom God fulfills His Covenant.

In Other words...

Genesis 17:7 finds its fulfillment in Christ--Galatians 3:16; 29

The first rule of hermeneutics is to interpret the Scripture literally wherever possible. Seed in Genesis 17 means children, and as we learn it means the children of Abraham and Sarah, which is Isaac. Isaac, as you know was the father of Jacob, and DNA will easily show that Jacob has many descendants alive today, who are called Jews, some of whom live in the country of Israel.

Now what rule of hermeneutics are you following?

 

[kyredneck]

DNA

7 neither, because they are Abraham`s seed, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
8 That is, it is not the children of the flesh that are children of God; but the children of the promise are reckoned for a seed. Ro 9

....and you insist, still, that it's about 'DNA'. Wow. Are you Jewish?

Now what rule of hermeneutics are you following?

When the Holy Spirit defines it in no uncertain terms, as in the above.

 

[Revmitchell]

The promise to Abraham and his seed Christ, and us who believe in Christ is unconditional and eternal. The promise also applied to his physical unbelieving seed who were always wicked. BUT it was conditional, earthly, temporal and forfeited many, many times over because of their wickedness.

The promise to Abraham was unconditional. It is found in Genesis 12 and 15. The ceremony gives clear indication of the unconditional nature of God's promise to Abraham.

 

[JonShaff]

The first rule of hermeneutics is to interpret the Scripture literally wherever possible. Seed in Genesis 17 means children, and as we learn it means the children of Abraham and Sarah, which is Isaac. Isaac, as you know was the father of Jacob, and DNA will easily show that Jacob has many descendants alive today, who are called Jews, some of whom live in the country of Israel.

Now what rule of hermeneutics are you following?

The Rule "Let Scripture Interpret Scripture".

 

[kyredneck]

The promise to Abraham was unconditional. It is found in Genesis 12 and 15.

Both given before the 'ceremony' of circumcision was instituted. Romans 4:9-10

 

[tyndale1946]

The Rule "Let Scripture Interpret Scripture".

Romans 2:28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:

2:29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

Brother Glen

 

[1689Dave]

The promise to Abraham was unconditional. It is found in Genesis 12 and 15. The ceremony gives clear indication of the unconditional nature of God's promise to Abraham.

This is correct. But the promise was conditional for the physical seed. Abraham's seed = Christ and believers from among wicked Israel and believers in Christ today. Physical Israel is purely a myth since Jesus abolished circumcision on the cross.

 

[church mouse guy]

Romans 2:28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:

2:29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

Brother Glen

So you would rule out DNA also to determine who owns Israel?

 

[Revmitchell]

This is correct. But the promise was conditional for the physical seed. Abraham's seed = Christ and believers from among wicked Israel and believers in Christ today. Physical Israel is purely a myth since Jesus abolished circumcision on the cross.

No it wasn't and you have no shown by scripture nor reason it is. It is a ridiculous claim.

 

[1689Dave]

No it wasn't and you have no shown by scripture nor reason it is. It is a ridiculous claim.

“Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.” (Galatians 3:16) (KJV 1900)

“There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. And if ye be Christ’s, then are ye Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.” (Galatians 3:28–29) (KJV 1900)