The Function of the Law in the New Covenant

[Yeshua1]

Do you think God expects Christians not to live by the Ten Commandments (John 14:15)?
You ask how we live by them; we walk in the Spirit. It is the Christian's delight to keep God's commandments (Psalm 119 passim).

God expects us to live as moral people, and that His grace is given to us in the person of the Holy Spirit to enable us to fulfill and walk as we ought to be!

 

[Yeshua1]

Once again, this falls short of anything that is biblical. God's "Moral Law"? to Show right and wrong?

Can stealing become moral? Or how about bearing False witness?

If i stole my neighbors gun because i knew he was going to harm someone, is that ok?

Or what if a bunch of thieves came into my house and asked, "Do you have an children here?" and i said "NO", knowing good and well they are hiding in the basement. Does that mean i did something immoral?

Is breaking the Moral law of God a sin?

 

[Yeshua1]

Thanks for sharing. But the Ten Commandments are the Old Covenant. Since this alone answers everything else you say on this matter, I'll concentrate on this for now.

This is from a Reformed Scholar who proves the Ten Commandments ARE the Old Covenant. Please read carefully, keeping in mind the Ten Commandments HUNG from the Two Great Commandments. These are the commandments that predated the Ten. As I said, something must exists before anything can hang from it.

“And He (God) wrote upon the tables the words of the covenant, the Ten Commandments.”
Deuteronomy 4:13:

“And He declared unto you His covenant, which He commanded you to perform, even the Ten Commandments.”
Deuteronomy 9:9:

“When I was gone up into the mount to receive the tables of stone, even the tables of the covenant.”
Deuteronomy 9:15:

“So I turned and came down from the mount . . . and the two tables of the covenant were in my two hands.”

We may learn the same thing by comparison of two passages in the 8th chapter of I Kings. In the 9th verse of that chapter we read the following statement, occurring in the story of the dedication of the temple:

“There was nothing in the ark save the two tables of stone which Moses put there at Horeb, when Jehovah made a covenant with the children of Israel, when they came out of the land of Egypt,”

and in the 21st verse of the same chapter Solomon says:

“And there have I set a place for the ark, wherein is the covenant of Jehovah, which he made with our fathers, when he brought them out of the land of Egypt.”
The second of these two texts is repeated in II Chronicles 6:11.

From the above scripture passages we see clearly that while the civil, liturgical and personal regulations rest upon the Sinaitic Covenant, yet they are not the covenant itself: that supreme position belongs to the Ten Commandments. Because they constituted the covenant, therefore the golden casket in which they were deposited was called “The ark of the covenant.” (Numbers 10:33; Jeremiah 3:16, and other places)


Albertus Pieters. The Seed of Abraham.

Let's develop this. I appreciate your challenges and think we can arrive at an agreement.

The Moral law of God is eternal though, correct?

 

[Reformed]

Thanks for helping keep this alive. Albertus Pieters taught this view. He is solidly Reformed and taught at Western Reformed Theological Seminary in western Michigan up until the 1950s.

So, are you in agreement with the 1689 LBC or do you take exception to it in regards to the moral law? Pieters is an accomplished theologian but he is only one voice. The point I am trying to make is that the whole of Reformed theology has always held to a moral law; codefied in the Decalogue and republished (or reaffirmed) under the New Covenant.

When I wrote earlier about the abrogation of the moral law being a hallmark of NCT (New Covenant Theology) you responding by saying you have not looked into NCT for a while. NCT's antinomianism places it solidly outside of Reformed thought. My challenge to you is to decide whether you agree with the 1689 and the majority of Reformed theologians throughout history or whether you depart with them on this issue. I am not judging you, I am simply encouraging you to be consistent.

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[JonShaff]

Even though the Lord Himself created those Morals to give to us?

Morals shift with Society, Culture, time, etc....

God showed us Righteousness, not morals.

 

[1689Dave]

So, are you in agreement with the 1689 LBC or do you take exception to it in regards to the moral law? Pieters is an accomplished theologian but he is only one voice. The point I am trying to make is that the whole of Reformed theology has always held to a moral law; codefied in the Decalogue and republished (or reaffirmed) under the New Covenant.

When I wrote earlier about the abrogation the moral law being a hallmark of NCT (New Covenant Theology) you responding by saying you have not looked into NCT for a while. NCT's antinomianism places it solidly outside of Reformed thought. My challenge is to you to decide whether you agree with the 1689 and the majority of Reformed theologians throughout history or whether you depart with them on this issue. I am not judging you, I am simply encouraging you to be consistent.

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I don't believe any denomination has all of the truth. And I see faults in the creeds and theologies I use most. I draw from the Reformed, the Baptists, the Mennonites, and perhaps a few others. Because each comes closer to the truth in different ways.

 

[JonShaff]

Does God require us to be obedient today under the NC to His Moral Laws as revealed to us in the 10 Commandments then?

He requires Obedience to His Spirit and the Word. Do you keep the Sabbath Holy? No, my life is not governed by the Ten commandments...It is Governed by His Holy Spirit. I do not have to "Try" to "Not break God's Law." I'm not sure why this is difficult to understand? The Letter Kills, but the Spirit Gives Life--the Life of Christ lived through me.

 

[1689Dave]

The Moral law of God is eternal though, correct?

Only the Two Great Commandments. These supported the Ten that are now abolished as being the Old Covenant. But they serve the New Covenant as commentary and instruction in righteousness.

 

[JonShaff]

Is breaking the Moral law of God a sin?

LOL--show me the "moral law of God" in Scripture. Going against God's Character demonstrated in His Word is Sin. If being Kind is Godly, and i Murder my neighbor, Yes i've sinned. If being compassionate is Godly and i'm uncompassionate, i've Sinned.

 

[JonShaff]

Also, whatever is not done in faith, is sin. Also, to him who knows to do good and does not do it, that's sin. @Yeshua1

 

[Yeshua1]

Morals shift with Society, Culture, time, etc....

God showed us Righteousness, not morals.

So the Moral standards of God shift to accommodate society and us?

 

[Yeshua1]

He requires Obedience to His Spirit and the Word. Do you keep the Sabbath Holy? No, my life is not governed by the Ten commandments...It is Governed by His Holy Spirit. I do not have to "Try" to "Not break God's Law." I'm not sure why this is difficult to understand? The Letter Kills, but the Spirit Gives Life--the Life of Christ lived through me.

It is not that we keep the law of God in order to get saved, or kept saved, but that when we are walking in Christ and relying upoojn the Holy Spirit, that we shall indeed keep the moral aspects of the scriptures as god intended us to do!

 

[Yeshua1]

Also, whatever is not done in faith, is sin. Also, to him who knows to do good and does not do it, that's sin. @Yeshua1

Is it sin to not obey the revealed Moral law of God?

 

[JonShaff]

So the Moral standards of God shift to accommodate society and us?

what moral standards? God works in terms of Righteousness, not moral standards.

 

[Yeshua1]

LOL--show me the "moral law of God" in Scripture. Going against God's Character demonstrated in His Word is Sin. If being Kind is Godly, and i Murder my neighbor, Yes i've sinned. If being compassionate is Godly and i'm uncompassionate, i've Sinned.

All depends on context, for if i refuse to address to a gay person that God standards are for him to have a better life than what he now as, by submitting to Christ, but I choose to stay quiet, is that really showing Him the love of Christ?

 

[TCassidy]

The function of the Law in the Old Covenant was the same as the function of the Law in the New Covenant.

In the Old Covenant the Law never saved anyone. It showed the people where they were wrong. This drove them to the sacrifices which were a shadow and type of the Sacrifice of Christ, yet to happen in time, which was their salvation. Then they went right back to the Law for regulation.

In the New Covenant the Law does not save. The Law shows us where we are wrong and drives us to Christ for salvation Who then directs us right back to the Law for regulation.

 

[Yeshua1]

Only the Two Great Commandments. These supported the Ten that are now abolished as being the Old Covenant. But they serve the New Covenant as commentary and instruction in righteousness.

Except the NT Apostles, under inspiration of the Spirit, choose to have us under 9, not 2 of them!

 

[JonShaff]

Is it sin to not obey the revealed Moral law of God?

I do not think you understand. Pharisees obeyed the "Moral Standard of God's Law" with wrong motivation. It's sin to not live out Righteousness.

 

[Yeshua1]

The function of the Law in the Old Covenant was the same as the function of the Law in the New Covenant.

In the Old Covenant the Law never saved anyone. It showed the people where they were wrong. This drove them to the sacrifices which were a shadow and type of the Sacrifice of Christ, yet to happen in time, which was their salvation. Then they went right back to the Law for regulation.

In the New Covenant the Law does not save. The Law shows us where we are wrong and drives us to Christ for salvation Who then directs us right back to the Law for regulation.

Yes, but he law also reveals to us the Moral stardards of a Holy God, and that we should still seek to obey Him in those areas addressed.

 

[Yeshua1]

what moral standards? God works in terms of Righteousness, not moral standards.

How do we even know than what would be a good work of righteousness, apart from the revealed Moral standards of God to compare the works to and against?