The Function of the Law in the New Covenant

[kyredneck]

I think you need to change your name from 1689Dave to NCTDave.

I'm not NCT.

Martin is prone to jumping to conclusions.

 

[kyredneck]

Jesus never abolished them,

...'you people' never cease to amaze me...

14 For he is our peace, who made both one, and brake down the middle wall of partition,
15 having abolished in the flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; that he might create in himself of the two one new man, so making peace; Eph 2

...and of course, 'some of you will not die until', this generation will not pass away until', 'the time is at hand', 'shortly come to pass', I come quickly, 'for yet a very little while', etc., really means thousands of years and still waiting.

 

[kyredneck]

Maybe you missed this?

...lol, he only sees what he wants to....it's characteristic of all 'those people'....

 

[kyredneck]

The fact the term does not appear in the Bible means nothing.

Wow. What happened to the solas mantra 'you people' parrot? You know, the part about 'sola scriptura'?

 

[kyredneck]

he Reformed view? The same Reformed view of Owen, Rutherford, M'shayne, Calvin et al? Reformed theology has some diverse positions but most Reformers confessed the moral law. Most of the Puritans believed in

...there it is, 'THE BOX'. One must conform, never think outside of the box!

 

[Reformed]

Remember, the Ten hung from the Two. The Two preexisted the Ten.

“Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.” (Matthew 22:37–40) (KJV 1900)

The Decalogue codefied God's moral law which always existed. I am on the road right now (having lunch), so I will go into this in depth later tonight. However, I do have time to point you to Exodus 16:23 where we see the introduction of the Sabbath before the giving of the Decalogue. In fact, the Sabbath rest is actually a creation ordinance (on the 7th day God rested). Cain knew better than to kill his brother because the inherent knowledge of right and wrong is resident in every person. Also, God instructed him to do right (Genesis 4).

More on this later.

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk

 

[kyredneck]

I don't believe any denomination has all of the truth. And I see faults in the creeds and theologies I use most. I draw from the Reformed, the Baptists, the Mennonites, and perhaps a few others. Because each comes closer to the truth in different ways.

AMEN, and, AMEN!

 

[1689Dave]

The Decalogue codefied God's moral law which always existed. I am on the road right now (having lunch), so I will go into this in depth later tonight. However, I do have time to point you to Exodus 16:23 where we see the introduction of the Sabbath before the giving of the Decalogue. In fact, the Sabbath rest is actually a creation ordinance (on the 7th day God rested). Cain knew better than to kill his brother because the inherent knowledge of right and wrong is resident in every person. Also, God instructed him to do right (Genesis 4).

More on this later.

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk

This would make a good discussion. But Christ abolished the Sabbath as well. Had he not, you could not heat your home on Saturday in the dead of winter. Paul says:

“One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind. He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks.” (Romans 14:5–6) (KJV 1900)

 

[kyredneck]

The Moral Law is epitomized in the Decalogue or Ten Commandments, and answers to the law ontologically embedded in man’s nature at creation as the image–bearer of God (Rom. 2:11–16).

What violence you do to this invaluable bit of scriptural enlightenment. The entire context concerns THE LAW, not some moral code as promulgated from within 'THE BOX':

12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without the law: and as many as have sinned under the law shall be judged by the law;
13 for not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified:
14 (for when Gentiles that have not the law do by nature the things of the law, these, not having the law, are the law unto themselves;
15 in that they show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness therewith, and their thoughts one with another accusing or else excusing them);
16 in the day when God shall judge the secrets of men, according to my gospel, by Jesus Christ.
17 But if thou bearest the name of a Jew, and restest upon the law, and gloriest in God,
18 and knowest his will, and approvest the things that are excellent, being instructed out of the law,
19 and art confident that thou thyself art a guide of the blind, a light of them that are in darkness,
20 a corrector of the foolish, a teacher of babes, having in the law the form of knowledge and of the truth;
21 thou therefore that teachest another, teachest thou not thyself? thou that preachest a man should not steal, dost thou steal?
22 thou that sayest a man should not commit adultery, dost thou commit adultery? thou that abhorrest idols, dost thou rob temples?
23 thou who gloriest in the law, through thy transgression of the law dishonorest thou God?
24 For the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles because of you, even as it is written.
25 For circumcision indeed profiteth, if thou be a doer of the law: but if thou be a transgressor of the law, thy circumcision is become uncircumcision.
26 If therefore the uncircumcision keep the ordinances of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be reckoned for circumcision?
27 and shall not the uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge thee, who with the letter and circumcision art a transgressor of the law?

The Righteousness of the Scribes and Pharisees

'You people' need to change your theology from 'Reformed' to 'Conformed'.

 

[Yeshua1]

Thanks Martin for taking time on this. The hierarchy of Law as I understand places the two great commandments on top. These are eternal, written on the hearts of all. But clouded by spiritual death in Adam. In this way, they condemn all of sin. But God circumcised the hearts of all believers of all time making these laws discernable. This would include Abel, Job, Abraham Paul, James etc. And these two commandments Jesus fulfilled on the cross as our representative. It is the love for God and neighbor that led to the crucifixion, and drives Christian ethics according to Paul in 1 Corinthians 13.

God gave the Ten Commandments as a synopsis of the two great commandments at a level the unregenerate could obey. Paul calls them menstealers, disobedient whoremongers and so on. By them, God harnessed their evil promising material gain for obedience and threatening loss, even death for disobedience. These were not good people, but obeyed having ulterior motives. God did not need to tell the born again not to steal, it wasn't in their nature. The civil laws and ceremonies were an inseparable part of this Old Covenant. And served the purpose to control the wicked and to illustrate spiritual truth to the believers.

In fulfilling the two great commandments on the cross, literally loving his Father, and his enemies for whom he died, giving body, soul and strength, Jesus also fulfilled the Ten Commandments. Abolishing them and circumcision. Therefore officially ending the physical State of Israel. And leaving the spiritual in place under Jesus.

Jesus and the NT writers imported some of the moral aspects of the Ten Commandments into the NT, but only as commentary and instruction. And we use it for a guide. But interestingly enough, if we do the exact opposite of what the Ten Commandments forbade, we end up living the love motive found in the two great commandments. Instead of stealing, we give. Instead of killing enemies, we love them etc. But the Old Covenant was the ten commandments and that entire system passed away, being replaced by the new. Had the Ten Commandments continued, the ceremonies and civil laws would too, because you cannot separate them. James and Paul say if you keep one part, you must reject Christ and keep it all.

What drove jesus to the Cross was much more though than those 2 Commandments, as it wasthe sin debt and obligation that all of us owe God for breaking all of His Law, so he died in our stead in order to allow for God to stay Holy to Himself and yet be freely able to pardon sinners.

 

[Yeshua1]

Remember, the Ten hung from the Two. The Two preexisted the Ten.

“Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.” (Matthew 22:37–40) (KJV 1900)

Except that the Bible stated to us the 10 Commandments, correct?

 

[Yeshua1]

...'you people' never cease to amaze me...

14 For he is our peace, who made both one, and brake down the middle wall of partition,
15 having abolished in the flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; that he might create in himself of the two one new man, so making peace; Eph 2

...and of course, 'some of you will not die until', this generation will not pass away until', 'the time is at hand', 'shortly come to pass', I come quickly, 'for yet a very little while', etc., really means thousands of years and still waiting.

We are noved saved nor kept by the law, but even Christians need to abide by it!

 

[Yeshua1]

This would make a good discussion. But Christ abolished the Sabbath as well. Had he not, you could not heat your home on Saturday in the dead of winter. Paul says:

“One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind. He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks.” (Romans 14:5–6) (KJV 1900)

We still have to us the Holy Day of obligation, its just not Saturday!

 

[Yeshua1]

Wow. What happened to the solas mantra 'you people' parrot? You know, the part about 'sola scriptura'?

The term Trinity itself is not found in the Bible either though, but still believe in that as true!

 

[1689Dave]

We still have to us the Holy Day of obligation, its just not Saturday!

Not really. Paul says;
“One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind. He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks.” (Romans 14:5–6) (KJV 1900)

 

[1689Dave]

What drove jesus to the Cross was much more though than those 2 Commandments, as it wasthe sin debt and obligation that all of us owe God for breaking all of His Law, so he died in our stead in order to allow for God to stay Holy to Himself and yet be freely able to pardon sinners.

Love drove Jesus to the cross. He fulfilled the Two Great commandments and consequently the ten because of love. He did not need the commandments to do this, but they fully aligned with the Love in him that caused him to harmonize with them.

 

[Iconoclast]

What violence you do to this invaluable bit of scriptural enlightenment. The entire context concerns THE LAW, not some moral code as promulgated from within 'THE BOX':

12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without the law: and as many as have sinned under the law shall be judged by the law;
13 for not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified:
14 (for when Gentiles that have not the law do by nature the things of the law, these, not having the law, are the law unto themselves;
15 in that they show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness therewith, and their thoughts one with another accusing or else excusing them);
16 in the day when God shall judge the secrets of men, according to my gospel, by Jesus Christ.
17 But if thou bearest the name of a Jew, and restest upon the law, and gloriest in God,
18 and knowest his will, and approvest the things that are excellent, being instructed out of the law,
19 and art confident that thou thyself art a guide of the blind, a light of them that are in darkness,
20 a corrector of the foolish, a teacher of babes, having in the law the form of knowledge and of the truth;
21 thou therefore that teachest another, teachest thou not thyself? thou that preachest a man should not steal, dost thou steal?
22 thou that sayest a man should not commit adultery, dost thou commit adultery? thou that abhorrest idols, dost thou rob temples?
23 thou who gloriest in the law, through thy transgression of the law dishonorest thou God?
24 For the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles because of you, even as it is written.
25 For circumcision indeed profiteth, if thou be a doer of the law: but if thou be a transgressor of the law, thy circumcision is become uncircumcision.
26 If therefore the uncircumcision keep the ordinances of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be reckoned for circumcision?
27 and shall not the uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge thee, who with the letter and circumcision art a transgressor of the law?

The Righteousness of the Scribes and Pharisees

'You people' need to change your theology from 'Reformed' to 'Conformed'.

Hello Kyred,
I am not sure I understand what you are objecting to this time....
This passage seems clear...but you seem to think you see something else here.....enlighten your neighbor from the southern portions as to what you see.

 

[kyredneck]

I am not sure I understand what you are objecting to

Your disregard for the context of Romans 2. You say 'the work of law written in their hearts' of v 15 is a universal 'moral law' that everyone is born with, right? But everywhere else in the chapter it's referring to the old covenant law, right? How do you justify such inconsistency with the text?

Is this your own thoughts or just what you go along with because it's 'orthodox'? It's what the theologians in your box espouses.

Do you not see the synonymy of these?:

14 (for when Gentiles that have not the law do by nature the things of the law,
27 and shall not the uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil the law

Those 'uncircumcised' Gentiles of vv 13-15 are described as 'JUSTIFIED'.

Do you not see the synonymy of these?:

15 in that they show the work of the law written in their hearts
29 but he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart

Those Gentiles of vv 13-15 are 'Jews inwardly'. Born from Jerusalem above. The Israel of God.

The Righteousness of the Scribes and Pharisees

Do you not see the synonymy, the 'continuity', of these?:

6 who will render to every man according to his works:
7 to them that by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and incorruption, eternal life:
13 for not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified:

 

[Yeshua1]

Love drove Jesus to the cross. He fulfilled the Two Great commandments and consequently the ten because of love. He did not need the commandments to do this, but they fully aligned with the Love in him that caused him to harmonize with them.

Actually,Jesus died to also honor and glorify the father, as he would die in the stead of sinners in order to bring glory to the plan and purpose of God on display in the Cross!

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Love drove Jesus to the cross. He fulfilled the Two Great commandments and consequently the ten because of love.

It was also righteousness that drove Jesus to the cross. 'Whom God set forth as a propitiation.......to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus' (Romans 3:25-26).