Andy Stanley wants to "Unhitch" the O.T. from the N.T.

SG thank the Lord you were not on that wagon... Brother Glen

 

So am I.

Its funny the chapter he chooses to preach from, Andy Stanley, that is. Because prior to that in Acts 13, they preached at Pisidian Antioch and used the OT scriptures to testify to them about the Christ. Now, they then traveled to Iconium, Lycaonia, Lystra, Derbe, then they came through Pisidia into Pamphylia to Perga and then back to Antioch.

No one should try to use the OT as a means of being saved in observing the OT sacrificial system as a way to salvation. But the Law, the 10 Commands, are just as in effect today as the day they were written upon Adam's, and conversely, our hearts.

 

Hello Brother, I pray all is well!

Question--if God's Law is written on Adam's Heart, Then Why did God say That He would establish a NEW covenant with His Law written on our hearts--especially if it's already on our hearts.

Please use scripture to justify your opinion, thanks!

 

For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law; for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified. For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.[Romans 2:12-16]

There was the Law written on two tablets of stone that was given solely to OT Israel. Nowhere can I find that these two tablets were written for their enemies. However, that does not mean they did not have to keep them. Look at all the idols they worshipped during OT days. Command numero uno was to have no other gods before God. That was given on two tablets of stone to Israel. Yet, when their enemies were worshipping idols, they were breaking that command. How? The Law is written on their hearts. Same goes all the way back to Adam.

 

Vs. 13-15 is a parenthetical statement. I'd prayerfully consider what you are quoting.

Still, What is the point of of Hebrews 8, if this is already a reality?

7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for a second. 8 Because finding fault with them, He says: “Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah— 9 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they did not continue in My covenant, and I disregarded them, says the Lord. 10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 11 None of them shall teach his neighbor, and none his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them. 12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more.”

13 In that He says, “A new covenant,” He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

 

I agree that there is a new covenant. In this covenant there is no more remembrance of sin as there was in the old one. It seems that God is solidifying His covenant with His ppl.

And this is already a reality. When a person is saved, they are given a new heart, and the old one is removed.[Ezekiel 11:19 & Ezekiel 36:26]

 

So you think the new covenant is simply solidifying His covenant with His people? I am still confused...you think Adam has God's Law written on his heart--yet the New Covenant distinctly does this, Yet you think it's always been done according to Ezek. 11 and 36?

I'm not trying to be a jerk...I'm just not tracking you my friend.

 

Let me show you how I arrived at my belief here.

The OT Jews were the sole recipients of the Law on two stone tablets. I can find nowhere where their enemies were given it. Now, their enemies were still considered idolaters because they were not worshipping the true God. Now, how could they be guilty of this if the Law was not given to them on those two stone tablets? That is what Romans 2:12-16 speaks about.

Now, as to your Hebrews 8 question. I do not have an answer for every verse, and sometimes I do tend to use my opinion, and here is one such case. So take this with a shaker of salt.

Look at Adam. If he would have gotten mad at Eve after their eyes were opened, and murdered her, he would have still sinned, even though God never told them murdering another human was a sin. If they would have built a tabernacle after the fall and made themselves an idol, they would have committed sin, even though God never told them this was wrong.

When Cain murdered Abel, God had not told them murdering another person was a sin, yet God confronted Cain over it. So, if the Law was not given until centuries later, none of these things would have been sin.

for the Law brings about wrath, but where there is no law, there also is no violation.[Romans 4:15]

So, if the Law was not written upon Adam's heart, then committing murder, lying, stealing, any sin other than eating of the ToK would have not been a sin.

 

Doing my best to track
Thank you for your time and efforts writing out your thoughts!

Maybe God is the Standard of Righteous?
Maybe the Law was a manifestation of His Righteousness to Measure?
God is Love--That's not just a Perfection of God, it's also the standard in Which He judges.

Do any of those thoughts speak to the realities of His judgment apart from "laws being written on Adam's heart"?

Do unto others....
Matthew 7:12
So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets.

 

Yes, God is the Standard of righteousness and that is why we have all fallen short of His glory.[Romans 3:23]

But how do we know about Him? Via the scriptures. The OT enemies of God did not have God's word, and because of, they made idols to worship.

Now, how did the Jews know the Law? It was via those two tablets of stone, PLUS it was written upon their hearts. The enemies of the Jews had the Law written upon their hearts, and by having this, they knew it was wrong to steal, fornicate with their neighbor's spouse, murder another person, etc.

The Law, could never save. So no matter how close someone lived to it, they would still die lost. The OT Jews were under the Law, but the Law never saved them that believed. They were saved the same way we are, grace through faith.

 

Yes, I agree

Yes, We know Him through His Word. Israel had His Word and made Idols as well

Do you have Scripture for the "Plus it was written on their hearts"?

Right, only through Christ and HIS work and righteousness are we Saved. Salvation belongs to God alone.

I'm in agreement with much of what you write--I just do not find any Scriptural evidence for Anyone having the Law written on their Heart Prior to the New Covenant.
Heb. 10:16
This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;

Maybe this is a silly analogy, but Let's say I went to Texas and drove on a residential street that had a school zone. Let's say I find myself speeding--35 in a 25mph zone--and then I get pulled over. I can tell the officer, "I did not know the law being from Oklahoma so you have no right to fine me." And he would tell me, "It doesn't matter if you know the law or not, you violated the law." Well that is similar to God's universe. You do not have to know the law in order to find yourself guilty under it. That's like saying "I don't know the specifics to the law of gravity therefore when I jump I will never come down." That's not reality. You're governed by the Law of Physics regardless if you know them or not. I believe that is the Same with God--You are measured by His Perfect law of love--and we all fall short. So whether you are a jew or gentile, we are without excuse. We all fall short of His glory. We do not need a law written on our heart in order to be guilty before God. We are accountable to His standard of Righteousness because It is His universe and He is the Just Judge of the Cosmos, plain and Simple. And I believe the entirety of the Scriptures back that up. I pray this helps

 

Agreed.

How could they have known it was wrong to murder, lie, steal, fornicate, if they didn't?

Well, I was listening to 'Focus on the Family ~ 1 year ago, and they mentioned that over 8 million ppl worldwide still have not heard the gospel. I don't know where they get these #'s, but that's what they said, iirc. Now, those who have never been exposed to the gospel, they still know it's wrong to lie, steal, murder, fornicate, &c. Why? As Romans 2:12-16 says, they have the Law written upon their hearts. They are in no better state than the OT enemies of God were.

As the judicial system tells ppl, "ignorance of the law is no excuse" and that applies to God's Law as well.

Look at my analogy. In Germany, the Autobahn has no speed limit(I heard they don't, but places on it do, so who knows?). If someone goes 2 or 222, they will not get a ticket for speeding. Why? There's no law there against speeding.

So, if the enemies of God did not have the Law on two stone tablets, how could they know it was wrong to commit those sins I previously mentioned? It was/is written on their hearts.

How do those living today, who have not heard the gospel, never had a bible in their hand, know its wrong to commit those sins I previously mentioned? It is written on their hearts.

 

We're getting away from the OP, sorry Brother Herald.

Andy Stanley stated something that I believe is totally off the wall. He said we are no longer accountable to the 10 Commands. By using that logic, we can not commit idolatry, murder, lying, fornicating, &c, as we are no longer accountable to the Law.

 

Romans 1 says they are under judgment for being aware of the Holy One and suppressing that knowledge and worshipping creation rather than the Creator. I mean, please read what you are asserting. That God needs a written law (either in their hearts or on tablets) in order to declare all men guilty. That's not what Scripture teaches. Scripture teaches we are all guilty no matter what.

 

While I agree, that was bizarre statement--Do you really think that you would be doing all of those sins if it wasn't for the Ten Commandments? The NT speaks against all of those sins. I'm not saying "Do away with the Ten," I'm just wondering if you think the NT would encourage us to commit all of those sins you mentioned, or does the NT condemn them as well? Just a question.

 

They see God through natural revelation, but NR does not expose them to the gospel. In Acts 13, Paul and Barnabas present the gospel to them at Antioch.

“Brethren, sons of Abraham’s family, and those among you who fear God, to us the message of this salvation has been sent. For those who live in Jerusalem, and their rulers, recognizing neither Him nor the utterances of the prophets which are read every Sabbath, fulfilled these by condemning Him. And though they found no ground for putting Him to death, they asked Pilate that He be executed. When they had carried out all that was written concerning Him,(death) they took Him down from the cross and laid Him in a tomb.(burial) But God raised Him from the dead(resurrection); and for many days He appeared to those who came up with Him from Galilee to Jerusalem, the very ones who are now His witnesses to the people. And we preach to you the good news of the promise made to the fathers, that God has fulfilled this promise to our children in that He raised up Jesus, as it is also written in the second Psalm, ‘YOU ARE MY SON; TODAY I HAVE BEGOTTEN YOU.’[Acts 13:26-33]

These ppl had not been exposed to the gospel prior to this. Apostle Paul said he would never travel where someone else has worked to present the gospel.

If there was no Law given at all, there would have been no sin. That is what Romans 4:15 avers. Romans 2:12-16 states that those who do that which is contained in the Law, do so because it has been written on their hearts.

If the Law was not written on the enemies of God's hearts, they would not have known what sin was.

 

Jesus did give them two which appears to be a condensed version of the 10. If you love the Lord with all your being and your neighbor as yourself, it is well with you. If not...

Now, none of us, believers and unbelievers alike, love the Lord the way we're commanded to. None of us loves Him with all our heart, with all our soul, with all our mind, and with all our strength. None of us loves our neighbor as ourselves, because there are times we put ourselves ahead of them.

That is why I am glad I am seen through the Christ, and not standing alone before God.

#Yay!!
#Hallelujah!

 

Question....why do you think the 2 are a condensed form of the 10?

It seems more probable that the 10 is commentary for the 2.

 

Jesus often quoted from the OT, so it's impossible to "unhitch" the Testaments. When Jesus said "It is written", He was referring to the OT. The NT hadn't yet been written.

 

Dunno