Featured Is It Humbleness First & Grace Second?

@Rockson typed this...

Great. We can now white-out this verse...

Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.[John 5:24]

So, Jesus was wrong to say those who believe have "passed out of death into life"? Jesus should have said "passed out of life unto life." Uhhhh yah...

 

I'm not sure how to take what you have posted. I suggested that each of us should look at the context of all the passages of scripture that are being discussed, and attempt to reconcile them.

You chastise me for that approach. You insinuate I don't "see" God and I'm not obeying His commands.

You then chastise Rockson for not seeing the passages in James in the context they were written (written to believers, not unbelievers)

Imho, you don't have a very well defined argument in this discussion

Peace to you

 

What I meant is that if spiritual death is only separation from God, then the words “has passed out of death into life” aren’t correct. Spiritual death is separation from God, and due to this separation from God, they are spiritually dead. If one is separated from air they are dead, just as those who are separated from God are dead(spiritually).

 

I do believe we are finished, sir.

I wish you well, and may you always see the Lord in every good thing that He gives you.

 

To me you're looking at this like a debate, in which I have to convince people who don't see the Bible as I do, to see it the way I do.

I'm not really here, in this section, for that, although I have been trying to.
I'm here to declare the truth of Scripture, and let the chips fall where they may.

For example:

" And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed." ( Acts 13:8 ) <------- Here we see that as many as were ordained to eternal life, believed. Ordination precedes belief.

" But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you." ( John 10:26 ) <------ Here we see Jesus telling the Jews that did not believe on Him, why they did not...because one has to be a sheep in order to believe. Being a sheep precedes belief.

" Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
30 They said therefore unto him, What sign shewest thou then, that we may see, and believe thee? what dost thou work?" ( John 6:18-30 ) <------ Here we see Jesus answering the Jews "out of left field" ( because He is answering them spiritually, instead of carnally, so it only looks like it is from out in left field ) and telling them that it is a work of God to believe on Him. Therefore, it is not a work of men to do so. God's work precedes belief.

" But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.
65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father." ( John 6:64-65 ) <------ Here we see Jesus declaring that there were some in the crowd that did not believe. He then tells them why they did not...because it has to be given to a person by His Father, in order to come to Him in belief. God the Father's giving of a person to Christ precedes belief.

" So then faith [cometh] by hearing, and hearing by the word of God." ( Romans 10:17 ) <------ Here we see the word of God preceding faith.

" For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;" ( Philippians 1:29 ) <------ Here we see two things that are given ( making them gifts ) to believers; To believe on Him, and to suffer for His sake. The giving of the two precedes belief.

" He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, [even] to them that believe on his name:
13 which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God." ( John 1:11-13 ) <------ Here we see that Jesus came to His own ( the Jews ), but they did not receive ( welcome ) Him. But as many as received ( welcomed ) Him, to them gave He the power to become ( resemble ) the sons of God ( "become" is Late Middle English for "assume the qualities of", or "resemble", or, more accurately, "begin to be" / "come to be").

What we also see, is this little fact that most who read this passage seem to overlook, because they are often looking at verse 12 to the exclusion of 13: Becoming born again is not by blood ( inheritance ), nor of the will of the flesh ( our own will ), nor of the will of man ( other people's will ), but it is of God.

People are born again "of God", or "by / from" God.

Therefore, man's will is completely ruled out by verse 13...but in every church I've ever been in, no pastor has ever read past verse 12.


Finally ( I love this verse and it is very special to me, because it shows me the love my Saviour has for me ),

" Blessed [is the man whom] thou choosest, and causest to approach [unto thee], that he may dwell in thy courts: we shall be satisfied with the goodness of thy house, even of thy holy temple." ( Psalms 65:4 ) <------- Here we see God choosing someone, and causing that person to approach Him. This was revealed to David, a man after God's own heart.



Those are a few samples of what I see and why.


To me, this was never about "Calvinism" versus "Arminianism", it was always about one person seeing what they see, and explaining to someone why they see it that way.



I'm at my limit...
Time to wait on God and see what happens, either way.

 

For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse. For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing to be wise, they became fools, and exchanged the glory of the incorruptible God for an image in the form of corruptible man and of birds and four-footed animals and crawling creatures.[Romans 1:18-23]

Here we see ppl who, even though they knew God existed, the knowledge the had they used to attribute to some idol.

Those who have never heard the gospel, never had a believer witness to them, never read a bible(I am talking about those in remote areas), do not know the God of the Bible.

 

Well, for someone who came to a debate forum determined not to debate, you did a very good job supporting your position.

 

Thanks, I appreciate your objective opinion of me.

May God bless you sir.

 

Yes, differing "interpretations".

I understand perfectly. Everything is relevant and every truth is debatable.
Your "jesus" is different than my "jesus", and your "gospel" is different than my "gospel".
One man's trash is another man's treasure, one man's loss is another's gain, and so forth.


Thank you for reminding me of why I left visible "churches"...they're filled with people who cannot agree on anything. One person's take on a verse or passage is always up for debate.

I realized long ago why there are denominations, and this section does nothing to change my mind. You know, I recently finished a 3 year stint on YouTube's comment section, trying very hard to convince someone who had been a believer for 25 years, that salvation could not be lost; Scripture after Scripture, reasoning from it, and I eventually had to say, " I'm sorry sir, that you think I am evil. May God bless you."

This is my final post in this thread sir, and thank you for allowing me to put my thoughts down coherently, and for bearing with me for as long as you have.

Once again, I wish you well.

 

Luke's non-apostolic pseudo-gospel advocates justification (Luke 18:14)
by saying; God, be merciful to me a sinner! (Luke 18:13).

There is no revelation of that in the Old Covenant
where obedience to the Law was required
or the New Covenant, wherein people become born-again
by hearing the gospel, in which the mercy
has already come by the sufficient sacrifice on the cross.

 

Read Psalms...

 

The recommendation to read Psalms doesn't refute my post.

I prefer to keep my mind pure by reading the apostles and prophets,
who were foundational to the household of God (Ephesians 2:20, 2 Peter 3:1-2),
rather then go beyond what is written to read David's diary.

 

David's diary, as you coyly put it, is every bit as inspired as what the Apostles and prophets wrote. To say otherwise is utterly foolish. David's diary, as you erroneously put it, is chocked full of repentance, that you erroneously say there is "no revelation of that in the Old Covenant."

 

The elephant in the room is the Roman Canon; a tradition !!!!

In the latter days the word of the LORD
shall go forth from Jerusalem (Micah 4:1-2, Isaiah 2:3).

But sleepy Christendom accepted the 'inspired Roman canon'
to become intoxicated (Matthew 13:25. Revelation 17:2)

 

Quick typing in dark sayings, man, and type plain English. I am fluent in that language, not gibberish.