Is It Humbleness First & Grace Second?

[SovereignGrace]

@Rockson typed this...

Spiritual death means separation from God. That's all it means.

Great. We can now white-out this verse...

Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.[John 5:24]

So, Jesus was wrong to say those who believe have "passed out of death into life"? Jesus should have said "passed out of life unto life." Uhhhh yah...

 

[Rockson]

I disagree with the first underlined segment, and here is why:

" This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye henceforth walk not as other Gentiles walk, in the vanity of their mind,
18 having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart:
19 who being past feeling have given themselves over unto lasciviousness, to work all uncleanness with greediness." ( Ephesians 4:17-19 )

Well as you know David this is written to Christians. First if you claim Christians which you consider the elect guaranteed how could they walk as other Gentiles walk in the vanity of their mind? Why give them a warning that they might? Doesn't that alone challenge Calvinistic irresistible grace? Key words here are "being past feeling" Are we to believe babies being born are past feeling? Doesn't this show here how Calvinists thoughts on totally and absolute depravity need to be adjusted?

Men can show humility to other men, but before God, who sees the hearts and minds, there is not true humility towards Him unless He creates a new heart in him.

" Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me." ( Psalms 51:10 )

Well hold it now Dave. That prayer is born out of humility or else he wouldn't have been able to pray it. You certainly wouldn't call that a prayer full of pride.

As for Ahab, he did that which God commanded him under the Law, and God promised certain temporal, earthly blessings for those who obeyed it:

Aren't you missing the point? The point is a very evil man chose to show humility before God. You claimed only Christians could show humility using James 4:6 as a text. Ahab wasn't a Christian.

" If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land." ( 2 Chronicles 7:14 )

This promise is given to the people of Israel, not to all men.
Notice that they have to already be called by His name...

Are you telling me Dave that God won't show favor and grace to any other people who would humble themselves before God? Didn't Namaan a general of the army of Syria show humility before God and was healed? 1 Kings 5 Rahab of Jericho 2 showed humility before God and was saved. Not an Israelite. The centurion showed humility before God and received his servant healed. Matt 8:10 Not of Israel. Jesus said himself, " I say to you that many will come from the east and the west to share the banquet with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven.

But the sons of the kingdom will be cast into the outer darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Matt 8:12 You're saying God won't respond to any one outside of Israel as they show humility towards him? I suggest you really maybe haven't thought through on this.Just because it says "If my people who are called my my name will humble themselves, most certainly doesn't exclude other nations from doing the same. "If at any time I announce that a nation or kingdom is to be uprooted, torn down and destroyed, and if that nation I warned repents of its evil, then I will relent and not inflict on it the disaster I had planned." Jer18: 7

Righteousness exalteth a nation: but sin is a reproach to any people. Proverbs 14:34

As you can see God didn't say he wouldn't stand in the way of a nation becoming exalted who practices righteousness . As we can see he also said the following, "For the eyes of the LORD roam throughout the earth to show Himself strong on behalf of those whose heart is fully devoted to Him."
2 Chronicles 16:10

 

[canadyjd]

How about reconciling all of God's word with all of it ( Matthew 4:4 )?

From my experience, that is taking a long time.
Could it be that some of you are just not seeing the things that are actually there in His word, because you've not taken Him up on His commands ( 2 Timothy 2:15 ) much?...
I stopped reading it in "verses" many years ago now, and it's taken that long to look at it like the book of letters that it really is....
May God be pleased to reveal Himself to you, through His word and through His gifts, more and more until you see Him.

I'm not sure how to take what you have posted. I suggested that each of us should look at the context of all the passages of scripture that are being discussed, and attempt to reconcile them.

You chastise me for that approach. You insinuate I don't "see" God and I'm not obeying His commands.

You then chastise Rockson for not seeing the passages in James in the context they were written (written to believers, not unbelievers)

Imho, you don't have a very well defined argument in this discussion

Peace to you

 

[Rockson]

@Rockson typed this...



Great. We can now white-out this verse...

Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.[John 5:24]

Absolute total nonsense! How in the world you claim my statement, Spiritual death means separation from God. That's all it means. can go to say one can erase the need to believe for eternal life is way, way, way beyond the extreme. Much appreciated if you'd keep your comments towards me at least being fair...THAT'S NOT.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Absolute total nonsense! How in the world you claim my statement, Spiritual death means separation from God. That's all it means. can go to say one can erase the need to believe for eternal life is way, way, way beyond the extreme. Much appreciated if you'd keep your comments towards me at least being fair...THAT'S NOT.

What I meant is that if spiritual death is only separation from God, then the words “has passed out of death into life” aren’t correct. Spiritual death is separation from God, and due to this separation from God, they are spiritually dead. If one is separated from air they are dead, just as those who are separated from God are dead(spiritually).

 

[Rockson]

In the spiritual realm, no one is called by His name until they have believed on Him, and they fall under the second covenant...and there is nothing in the New Testament about humbling one's self as an unbeliever.

Yes there is but you refuse to acknowledge it. It's summed up in the one word...REPENT. If that's not humbling oneself as an unbeliever than what is?

I hate to say it, Rockson, but your way makes God dependent upon man's response, and He is then locked into honoring His promise by what men do, or don't do. If a man can humble himself and gain God's favor by it, that violates Ephesians 2:9.

Violates Ephesians 2:9? No it doesn't. It merely goes against your interpretation of said verse.

Think of it as a double lock...no man can come to Jesus except the Father draw him ( John 6:44 ) and no man can come to the Father except through Jesus Christ ( John 14:6 ) .
That is what Scripture teaches.

Yes the Holy Spirit convicts us of sin and we must respond. But I fail to see how your mentioning these verses in any way speaks against what I've shared. Jesus is the Savior and only one true but such doesn't mean one can't set aside or resist the receiving of his grace. One still must receive and such takes an act of the will.

There is then nothing that a saved person can base their salvation on, except His mercy and grace ( Titus 3:5 ).

I've never denied that at all! In your way of thinking you've marginalized anyone as being less honoring to God because they won't acknowledge a simple act of humility in repenting wouldn't constitute a work. In other words if you took the wraps off your claiming those who hold to your thoughts are actually demonstrating more humility towards God as compared to the rest of us who hold a simple act of repentance doesn't add to working for salvation. Consider you might mean well but it might very well be a form of false humility. We see an example of such in Col 2:19 where it states,

Do not let anyone who delights in false humility and the worship of angels disqualify you with speculation about what he has seen.

The subject matter here doesn't apply to Calvinists but a principle here might. Take care in pointing fingers at others claiming they're not honoring God as they should or embracing a certain type of humility that God calls FALSE and something he never asked his children to bear. You're wanting to make people believe, that men didn't choose God. If they claimed they did you define them as being in pride therefore placing you with greater humility. I'd say to my readers be very careful of this. The type of honor and praise these good people want to give God is not something he accepts because it violates his character what they claim he does. They mean well but such doesn't mean it is well. I do wish however and pray they'd come into more a proper understanding of the truth.

 

[Dave G]

Nope. Not true Dave.

I do believe we are finished, sir.

I wish you well, and may you always see the Lord in every good thing that He gives you.

 

[Dave G]

Imho, you don't have a very well defined argument in this discussion

To me you're looking at this like a debate, in which I have to convince people who don't see the Bible as I do, to see it the way I do.

I'm not really here, in this section, for that, although I have been trying to.
I'm here to declare the truth of Scripture, and let the chips fall where they may.

For example:

" And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed." ( Acts 13:8 ) <------- Here we see that as many as were ordained to eternal life, believed. Ordination precedes belief.

" But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you." ( John 10:26 ) <------ Here we see Jesus telling the Jews that did not believe on Him, why they did not...because one has to be a sheep in order to believe. Being a sheep precedes belief.

" Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
30 They said therefore unto him, What sign shewest thou then, that we may see, and believe thee? what dost thou work?" ( John 6:18-30 ) <------ Here we see Jesus answering the Jews "out of left field" ( because He is answering them spiritually, instead of carnally, so it only looks like it is from out in left field ) and telling them that it is a work of God to believe on Him. Therefore, it is not a work of men to do so. God's work precedes belief.

" But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.
65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father." ( John 6:64-65 ) <------ Here we see Jesus declaring that there were some in the crowd that did not believe. He then tells them why they did not...because it has to be given to a person by His Father, in order to come to Him in belief. God the Father's giving of a person to Christ precedes belief.

" So then faith [cometh] by hearing, and hearing by the word of God." ( Romans 10:17 ) <------ Here we see the word of God preceding faith.

" For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;" ( Philippians 1:29 ) <------ Here we see two things that are given ( making them gifts ) to believers; To believe on Him, and to suffer for His sake. The giving of the two precedes belief.

" He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, [even] to them that believe on his name:
13 which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God." ( John 1:11-13 ) <------ Here we see that Jesus came to His own ( the Jews ), but they did not receive ( welcome ) Him. But as many as received ( welcomed ) Him, to them gave He the power to become ( resemble ) the sons of God ( "become" is Late Middle English for "assume the qualities of", or "resemble", or, more accurately, "begin to be" / "come to be").

What we also see, is this little fact that most who read this passage seem to overlook, because they are often looking at verse 12 to the exclusion of 13: Becoming born again is not by blood ( inheritance ), nor of the will of the flesh ( our own will ), nor of the will of man ( other people's will ), but it is of God.

People are born again "of God", or "by / from" God.

Therefore, man's will is completely ruled out by verse 13...but in every church I've ever been in, no pastor has ever read past verse 12.


Finally ( I love this verse and it is very special to me, because it shows me the love my Saviour has for me ),

" Blessed [is the man whom] thou choosest, and causest to approach [unto thee], that he may dwell in thy courts: we shall be satisfied with the goodness of thy house, even of thy holy temple." ( Psalms 65:4 ) <------- Here we see God choosing someone, and causing that person to approach Him. This was revealed to David, a man after God's own heart.



Those are a few samples of what I see and why.


To me, this was never about "Calvinism" versus "Arminianism", it was always about one person seeing what they see, and explaining to someone why they see it that way.



I'm at my limit...
Time to wait on God and see what happens, either way.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Nope. Not true Dave.



Well I'm not referring to "godly culture" but culture which hasn't reached a point where they're absolutely and totally depraved in a way that you would say all unsaved cultures are. David I'll roll out here with my comments embedded this passage of Romans 1.

"For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, [so there was a period of time they knew God. The wrath of God wasn't revelaed against them until they reached the point where they didn't glorify God] neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations [became vain not born that way from birth] and their foolish heart was darkened.

Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, [became...not born that way] And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.Wherefore [wherefore...because they didn't acknowledge God they went to a lower level of degradation] God also gave them up to uncleanness [that means they weren't at the same level of degradation prior] through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections:[again given up only after periods of time that they weren't so degraded] for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:

And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge,[didn't mean they couldn't have retained God's knowledge and again we see God speaks again of therefore giving them up to a reprobate mind. That means they didn't have such before] God gave them over to a reprobate mind to do those things which are not convenient;Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers....." Romans 1: 18-32

For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse. For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing to be wise, they became fools, and exchanged the glory of the incorruptible God for an image in the form of corruptible man and of birds and four-footed animals and crawling creatures.[Romans 1:18-23]

Here we see ppl who, even though they knew God existed, the knowledge the had they used to attribute to some idol.

Those who have never heard the gospel, never had a believer witness to them, never read a bible(I am talking about those in remote areas), do not know the God of the Bible.

 

[canadyjd]

To me you're looking at this like a debate, in which I have to convince people who don't see the Bible as I do, to see it the way I do.

I'm not really here, in this section, for that, although I have been trying to.
I'm here to declare the truth of Scripture, and let the chips fall where they may.

For example:

" And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed." ( Acts 13:8 ) <------- Here we see that as many as were ordained to eternal life, believed. Ordination precedes belief.

" But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you." ( John 10:26 ) <------ Here we see Jesus telling the Jews that did not believe on Him, why they did not...because one has to be a sheep in order to believe. Being a sheep precedes belief.

" Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
30 They said therefore unto him, What sign shewest thou then, that we may see, and believe thee? what dost thou work?" ( John 6:18-30 ) <------ Here we see Jesus answering the Jews "out of left field" ( because He is answering them spiritually, instead of carnally, so it only looks like it is from out in left field ) and telling them that it is a work of God to believe on Him. Therefore, it is not a work of men to do so. God's work precedes belief.

" But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.
65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father." ( John 6:64-65 ) <------ Here we see Jesus declaring that there were some in the crowd that did not believe. He then tells them why they did not...because it has to be given to a person by His Father, in order to come to Him in belief. God the Father's giving of a person to Christ precedes belief.

" So then faith [cometh] by hearing, and hearing by the word of God." ( Romans 10:17 ) <------ Here we see the word of God preceding faith.

" For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;" ( Philippians 1:29 ) <------ Here we see two things that are given ( making them gifts ) to believers; To believe on Him, and to suffer for His sake. The giving of the two precedes belief.

" He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, [even] to them that believe on his name:
13 which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God." ( John 1:11-13 ) <------ Here we see that Jesus came to His own ( the Jews ), but they did not receive ( welcome ) Him. But as many as received ( welcomed ) Him, to them gave He the power to become ( resemble ) the sons of God ( "become" is Late Middle English for "assume the qualities of", or "resemble", or, more accurately, "begin to be" / "come to be").

What we also see, is this little fact that most who read this passage seem to overlook, because they are often looking at verse 12 to the exclusion of 13: Becoming born again is not by blood ( inheritance ), nor of the will of the flesh ( our own will ), nor of the will of man ( other people's will ), but it is of God.

People are born again "of God", or "by / from" God.

Therefore, man's will is completely ruled out by verse 13...but in every church I've ever been in, no pastor has ever read past verse 12.


Finally ( I love this verse and it is very special to me, because it shows me the love my Saviour has for me ),

" Blessed [is the man whom] thou choosest, and causest to approach [unto thee], that he may dwell in thy courts: we shall be satisfied with the goodness of thy house, even of thy holy temple." ( Psalms 65:4 ) <------- Here we see God choosing someone, and causing that person to approach Him. This was revealed to David, a man after God's own heart.



Those are a few samples of what I see and why.


To me, this was never about "Calvinism" versus "Arminianism", it was always about one person seeing what they see, and explaining to someone why they see it that way.



I'm at my limit...
Time to wait on God and see what happens, either way.

Well, for someone who came to a debate forum determined not to debate, you did a very good job supporting your position.

 

[Dave G]

Well, for someone who came to a debate forum determined not to debate, you did a very good job supporting your position.

Thanks, I appreciate your objective opinion of me.

May God bless you sir.

 

[Dave G]

Violates Ephesians 2:9? No it doesn't. It merely goes against your interpretation of said verse.

Yes, differing "interpretations".

I understand perfectly. Everything is relevant and every truth is debatable.
Your "jesus" is different than my "jesus", and your "gospel" is different than my "gospel".
One man's trash is another man's treasure, one man's loss is another's gain, and so forth.


Thank you for reminding me of why I left visible "churches"...they're filled with people who cannot agree on anything. One person's take on a verse or passage is always up for debate.

I realized long ago why there are denominations, and this section does nothing to change my mind. You know, I recently finished a 3 year stint on YouTube's comment section, trying very hard to convince someone who had been a believer for 25 years, that salvation could not be lost; Scripture after Scripture, reasoning from it, and I eventually had to say, " I'm sorry sir, that you think I am evil. May God bless you."

This is my final post in this thread sir, and thank you for allowing me to put my thoughts down coherently, and for bearing with me for as long as you have.

Once again, I wish you well.

 

[Rockson]

To me you're looking at this like a debate, in which I have to convince people who don't see the Bible as I do, to see it the way I do.

Dave well that's up to you what your motives are for participating here. I haven't sought to define your reason for being here whatsoever and have never given it a thought.

" But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you." ( John 10:26 ) <------ Here we see Jesus telling the Jews that did not believe on Him, why they did not...because one has to be a sheep in order to believe. Being a sheep precedes belief.

Not necessarily. If I had a criteria by which men would have to come and revealed it as such and they that rejected I could define them as not being my sheep to make them aware of their position so they could come to realize such and make a change. You can't just stop at John 10:26 and build a doctrine. Looking at the whole chapter we see Jesus saying to these same individuals and an exhortation FOR THEM to STILL repent and believe which means they could have become his sheep.

If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not. But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him. John 10: 28-29

" Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
30 They said therefore unto him, What sign shewest thou then, that we may see, and believe thee? what dost thou work?" ( John 6:18-30 ) <------ Here we see Jesus answering the Jews "out of left field" ( because He is answering them spiritually, instead of carnally, so it only looks like it is from out in left field ) and telling them that it is a work of God to believe on Him. Therefore, it is not a work of men to do so. God's work precedes belief.

Nope. Sorry. You've taken the word "work" here and limited it to a thing of God or works of the law to achieve salvation. The word "work" here has no connection whatsoever to the different biblical theme of keeping the works of the law for salvation. One must get the context. The people were just asking what they need to do to please God. Yes they used the term work the works of God but Jesus flipped it on them by saying the only thing THEY NEEDED TO DO was to believe on him whom he has sent. If you want to please God than that's what you need to do...BELIEVE. It says "that ye believe" that's something they have to do.

" So then faith [cometh] by hearing, and hearing by the word of God." ( Romans 10:17 ) <------ Here we see the word of God preceding faith.

So what's that got to do with proving your position? Yes I believe the gospel gives faith...one hears what Jesus did on the cross as a substitute for our sins that's the word preached...the individual can still choose to accept it or reject it as wisdom or foolishness.

 

[Rockson]

Thank you for reminding me of why I left visible "churches"...they're filled with people who cannot agree on anything. One person's take on a verse or passage is always up for debate.

Then why Dave were you on this thread with individuals who in good faith want to discuss these themes? You knew it was somewhat of a debate forum. And no I'm not a cynic. I don't believe Christians disagree on everything and because you see some who think everything is up for debate you leave the body of Christ as you said you left "visible churches" ? You might consider the devil just plants one here one there in a spot to offend you and off you go. I'm confident you have it within you to see a bigger picture in this regard as the body of Christ is called to encourage one another with the same comfort each one of us has been comforted with.

You know, I recently finished a 3 year stint on YouTube's comment section, trying very hard to convince someone who had been a believer for 25 years, that salvation could not be lost; Scripture after Scripture, reasoning from it, and I eventually had to say, " I'm sorry sir, that you think I am evil. May God bless you."

Fair enough but I trust you're not insinuating here that anyone is calling you evil. That individual might have but not here. I sincerely do wish you all the best.

 

[Conqueror]

Luke's non-apostolic pseudo-gospel advocates justification (Luke 18:14)
by saying; God, be merciful to me a sinner! (Luke 18:13).

There is no revelation of that in the Old Covenant
where obedience to the Law was required
or the New Covenant, wherein people become born-again
by hearing the gospel, in which the mercy
has already come by the sufficient sacrifice on the cross.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Luke's non-apostolic pseudo-gospel advocates justification (Luke 18:14)
by saying; God, be merciful to me a sinner! (Luke 18:13).

There is no revelation of that in the Old Covenant
where obedience to the Law was required
or the New Covenant, wherein people become born-again
by hearing the gospel, in which the mercy
has already come by the sufficient sacrifice on the cross.

Read Psalms...

 

[Conqueror]

Luke's non-apostolic pseudo-gospel advocates justification (Luke 18:14)
by saying; God, be merciful to me a sinner! (Luke 18:13).

There is no revelation of that in the Old Covenant
where obedience to the Law was required
or the New Covenant, wherein people become born-again
by hearing the gospel, in which the mercy
has already come by the sufficient sacrifice on the cross.

Read Psalms...

The recommendation to read Psalms doesn't refute my post.

I prefer to keep my mind pure by reading the apostles and prophets,
who were foundational to the household of God (Ephesians 2:20, 2 Peter 3:1-2),
rather then go beyond what is written to read David's diary.

 

[SovereignGrace]

The recommendation to read Psalms doesn't refute my post.

I prefer to keep my mind pure by reading the apostles and prophets,
who were foundational to the household of God (Ephesians 2:20, 2 Peter 3:1-2),
rather then go beyond what is written to read David's diary.

David's diary, as you coyly put it, is every bit as inspired as what the Apostles and prophets wrote. To say otherwise is utterly foolish. David's diary, as you erroneously put it, is chocked full of repentance, that you erroneously say there is "no revelation of that in the Old Covenant."

 

[Conqueror]

The recommendation to read Psalms doesn't refute my post.

I prefer to keep my mind pure by reading the apostles and prophets,
who were foundational to the household of God (Ephesians 2:20, 2 Peter 3:1-2),
rather then go beyond what is written to read David's diary.

David's diary, as you coyly put it, is every bit as inspired as what the Apostles and prophets wrote. To say otherwise is utterly foolish. David's diary, as you erroneously put it, is chocked full of repentance, that you erroneously say is there is no revelation of in the Old Covenant.

The elephant in the room is the Roman Canon; a tradition !!!!

In the latter days the word of the LORD
shall go forth from Jerusalem (Micah 4:1-2, Isaiah 2:3).

But sleepy Christendom accepted the 'inspired Roman canon'
to become intoxicated (Matthew 13:25. Revelation 17:2)

 

[SovereignGrace]

The elephant in the room is the Roman Canon; a tradition !!!!

In the latter days the word of the LORD
shall go forth from Jerusalem (Micah 4:1-2, Isaiah 2:3).

But sleepy Christendom (Matthew 13:25) accepted
the 'inspired Roman canon' to become intoxicated (Revelations 17:2)

Quick typing in dark sayings, man, and type plain English. I am fluent in that language, not gibberish.