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Miscellaneous translation notes.

37818

Well-Known Member
This thread is about translation as I would like to see done. From time to time I will post one.

Others should feel free to do the same. But be prepared to accept the fact there may be some who will disagree.

(KJV is the starting base.)
Here is my first suggestion:


". . . Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born over, he cannot see the kingdom of God. . . ." -- John 3:3.

". . . Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born over. . . ." -- John 3:7.
 

Jerome

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Miscellaneous translation notes. This thread is about translation as I would like to see done...KJV is the starting base...
That is not translating. Perhaps you mean paraphrase? reword?
 

37818

Well-Known Member
That is not translating. Perhaps you mean paraphrase? reword?
Really? The Greek word is ανωθεν. anothen. Has been translated in the margins of Bibles for years as "from above." Other places the word is translated "top." (Mark 15:38).
 

HankD

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
From above is OK.

Born "over" does not give the same nuance as "above"; "above" implying heaven.

"above" is what Jesus meant, "over" is what Nicodemus probably chose to hear ipso facto his confusion.
 

37818

Well-Known Member
From above is OK.

Born "over" does not give the same nuance as "above"; "above" implying heaven.

"above" is what Jesus meant, "over" is what Nicodemus probably chose to hear ipso facto his confusion.

That is a likely explanation, in light in that passage that word is typically been translated as "again." "Over" being a more literal translation having the same sense as "again." Noting though, Jesus' explanation (John 3:6).
 

TCassidy

Late-Administator Emeritus
Administrator
"Again" is the much better translation in keeping with the context. Born of the flesh (first birth) born of the Spirit (second birth). Born once, then born again.

To try to make it mean "born from above" or "born over" is to ignore the context. You must be "born again." You must be "regenerated." "Re" = again, "generated" = born.

The whole point of the doctrine of regeneration is that a person must be born again. "Re-above?" "Re-over." Nope. "Re-generated." Born again.

(American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language)
re- prefix
once more; afresh; anew.
from Latin re-, red- ‘again, back.’
 

Scarlett O.

Moderator
Moderator
I don't see "over" giving the statement any deeper understanding. Over, to me, confuses what Jesus said.

The word you put forth, anōthen, is found 13 times in the Bible. Here is how the NT writers used that word.

  • Matthew 27:51 = "And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent..."
  • Mar 15:38 = "And the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom.
  • Luke 1:3 = "It seemed good to me also, having had perfect understanding of all things from the very first to write unto thee in order, most excellent Theophilus…"
  • John 3:3 = "Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."
  • John 3:7 = "Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again."
  • John 3:31 = "He that cometh from above is above all: he that is of the earth is earthly, and speaketh of the earth: he that cometh from heaven is above all."
  • John 19:11 = "Jesus answered, Thou couldest have no power at all against me, except it were given thee from above: therefore he that delivered me unto thee hath the greater sin."
  • John 19:23 = "Then the soldiers, when they had crucified Jesus, took his garments, and made four parts, to every soldier a part; and also his coat: now the coat was without seam, woven from the top throughout."
  • Acts 26:5 = "Which knew me from the beginning, if they would testify, that after the most straitest sect of our religion I lived a Pharisee."
  • Galatians 4:9 = "But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?"
  • James 1:17 = "Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning."
  • James 3:15 = "This wisdom descendeth not from above, but is earthly, sensual, devilish."
  • James 3:17 = "But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, and easy to be intreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality, and without hypocrisy.

So Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Paul, and James all used the word "aonthen" in this manner.

It doesn't seem to mean "over" as in "re-do". It seems to mean coming from above, or being first or from the beginning or top as in preeminence.

To be born "again" is to have a spiritual birth that takes priority over the fleshly birth. Born "over" just mean a re-do.

Born "anothen" mean a different birth that takes priority.
 

HankD

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
"Again" is the much better translation in keeping with the context. Born of the flesh (first birth) born of the Spirit (second birth). Born once, then born again.

To try to make it mean "born from above" or "born over" is to ignore the context. You must be "born again." You must be "regenerated." "Re" = again, "generated" = born.

The whole point of the doctrine of regeneration is that a person must be born again. "Re-above?" "Re-over." Nope. "Re-generated." Born again.

(American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language)
re- prefix
once more; afresh; anew.
from Latin re-, red- ‘again, back.’

To me Jesus added the nuance of "heaven" to ἄνωθεν when He explained to Nicodemus what he should have already known.

John 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
 

37818

Well-Known Member
The fact remains the word meaning "above" has been and is being uniquely translated as "again." With the sense and meaning, "to redo." Our English word "over" can have both connotation of "above" or "again." Is that false?
 

Rippon

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
The following have 'born from above' in both John 3:3 and 3:7:

ISV, LEB, NABRE, NET and NRSV. Nearly all versions have the alternate of 'born again' or 'born anew' in the footnotes.
 

John of Japan

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
That is a likely explanation, in light in that passage that word is typically been translated as "again." "Over" being a more literal translation having the same sense as "again." Noting though, Jesus' explanation (John 3:6).
No, "born over" is not a more literal translation, because the English meaning is unclear. This phrase "born over" is not in common usage in our language. Do you mean "reborn"? Do you mean "born above" something (a bed, maybe)? Can you give an example from standard American English of the meaning you are trying to convey with "born over"?
 

John of Japan

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
The fact remains the word meaning "above" has been and is being uniquely translated as "again." With the sense and meaning, "to redo." Our English word "over" can have both connotation of "above" or "again." Is that false?
The word anothen is polysemous. That is, it has more than one meaning. Whether it means "again" or "from above" depends on the context. In the case of John 3, Jesus makes the meaning clear in v. 5: "born again" (or a second time). So Nicodemus understood Jesus as meaning "again," but misunderstood the meaning of a spiritual birth the second time.

In Luke 1:3 it has a third meaning: "from the first."
 

Martin Marprelate

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
This thread is about translation as I would like to see done. From time to time I will post one.

Others should feel free to do the same. But be prepared to accept the fact there may be some who will disagree.

(KJV is the starting base.)
Here is my first suggestion:


". . . Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born over, he cannot see the kingdom of God. . . ." -- John 3:3.

". . . Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born over. . . ." -- John 3:7.
I afraid I don't think 'born over' is a particularly helpful translation. Anothen is a word that appears several times in the NT, and usually it means 'from above' or ;from the top' (e.g. Matthew 27:51; John 3:31; James 1:17) It can also mean 'from the beginning' (Luke 1:3; Acts 26:5) but only in Galatians 4:9, does it clearly mean 'again.'

So why have the large majority of translators rendered the word as 'again' in John 3? Because that is what Nicodemus understood our Lord to mean, since he replied, 'How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter into his mother's womb a second time and be born?' (3:4). So I'm sure that 'again' is the proper translation. However, it seems to me that the Lord Jesus may have chosen the word specifically because of its double meaning. "You, Nicodemus need a second birth if you are ever to see or enter the kingdom of God; but not an earthly or worldly birth; you need a birth that come from above!"
 

37818

Well-Known Member
No, "born over" is not a more literal translation, because the English meaning is unclear. This phrase "born over" is not in common usage in our language. Do you mean "reborn"? Do you mean "born above" something (a bed, maybe)? Can you give an example from standard American English of the meaning you are trying to convey with "born over"?
The phrase "do it over" is an idiom meaning to "do it again." Then there is the phrase "over again," which to me seems redundant. Then there is the phrase to do it "over and over again," to repeat it again and again.
 
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