Miscellaneous translation notes.

[tyndale1946]

Or is it the First Amendment?

That is so true we are Baptist!... Some are English Baptist and some are Greek!... Brother Glen

 

[loDebar]

If one is born again, it is from above.

 

[rlvaughn]

Yep. Where there are 5 baptists there are 7 opinions.

That seems unlikely, for wouldn't that mean that 3 have agreement within themselves (thus having only one opinion each) and only 2 disagree within themselves (thus having two opinions each)? More likely 10 or 15 opinions!

 

[HankD]

That seems unlikely, for wouldn't that mean that 3 have agreement within themselves (thus having only one opinion each) and only 2 disagree within themselves (thus having two opinions each)? More likely 10 or 15 opinions!

I believe your opinion might be correct however, I am of the opinion your math may be questionable.

 

[37818]

Another note. Again the KJV is the base translation:

". . . So Jacob went down into Egypt, and dieth, he, and our fathers, And were carried over into Sychem, and laid in the sepulchre that Abraham bought for a sum of money; besides of the sons of Emmor [the father] of Sychem. . . ." -- Acts 7:15-16.

The Greek ". . . παρα . . ." translated as ". . . besides . . ."

Jabob was laid in the sepulchre that Abraham bought from Ephron (Genesis 23:16-20; Genesis 50:13). Now it was Jacob who bought from the sons of Emmor (Genesis 33:19). The hears of what Stephen had spoken would have understood this. . ". . . παρα . . ."

 

[rlvaughn]

I believe your opinion might be correct however, I am of the opinion your math may be questionable.

I've never claimed math was my best subject!

...But 3 + 2 + 2 does equal 7.

 

[John of Japan]

The phrase "do it over" is an idiom meaning to "do it again." Then there is the phrase "over again," which to me seems redundant. Then there is the phrase to do it "over and over again," to repeat it again and again.

Nope, that's not an answer. These are idioms, and they therefore don't give lexical knowledge about similar idioms. There are many idioms or sayings with the word "cat," but none of them tell us what the others mean: "Cat got your tongue?" "cat burgler;" "Cat's tongue" (Japanese idiom for sensitive tongue); "raining cats and dogs."

Again, "born over" is not an English expression or idiom. We simply do not say this. If you give a meaning, I can give my meaning, and neither of us can disprove the other's opinion, because there is no contemporary usage of the term (how a linguist determines meaning).

 

[John of Japan]

Another note. Again the KJV is the base translation:

". . . So Jacob went down into Egypt, and dieth, he, and our fathers, And were carried over into Sychem, and laid in the sepulchre that Abraham bought for a sum of money; besides of the sons of Emmor [the father] of Sychem. . . ." -- Acts 7:15-16.

The Greek ". . . παρα . . ." translated as ". . . besides . . ."

Jabob was laid in the sepulchre that Abraham bought from Ephron (Genesis 23:16-20; Genesis 50:13). Now it was Jacob who bought from the sons of Emmor (Genesis 33:19). The hears of what Stephen had spoken would have understood this. . ". . . παρα . . ."

Where did you get the word "besides"? It's not in the KJV in my software, and I checked my genuine reproduction of the 1611 KJV and it's not there either.

The KJV actually translates para as "of" meaning "from" in 1611 English.

 

[37818]

Nope, that's not an answer. These are idioms, and they therefore don't give lexical knowledge about similar idioms. There are many idioms or sayings with the word "cat," but none of them tell us what the others mean: "Cat got your tongue?" "cat burgler;" "Cat's tongue" (Japanese idiom for sensitive tongue); "raining cats and dogs."

Again, "born over" is not an English expression or idiom. We simply do not say this. If you give a meaning, I can give my meaning, and neither of us can disprove the other's opinion, because there is no contemporary usage of the term (how a linguist determines meaning).

When did "born again" become an English expression? As I understand it, from John 3:3 being translated in that way. The original KJV did have "from above" in the margin.

John, again thanks.

 

[37818]

Where did you get the word "besides"? It's not in the KJV in my software, and I checked my genuine reproduction of the 1611 KJV and it's not there either.

The KJV actually translates para as "of" meaning "from" in 1611 English.

Well we have some choices. Either Stephen got it wrong or the hears understood in some sense para in reference to the location Jacob bough as opposed to what Abraham bought.

 

[John of Japan]

When did "born again" become an English expression? As I understand it, from John 3:3 being translated in that way. The original KJV did have "from above" in the margin.

John, again thanks.

I'd say that "born again" became English through the Bible. My Geneva Bible has the phrase, so it was around before the KJV. If whoever originally did the "born again" rendering had chosen "born over," that would be the phrase we use, but it didn't happen that way.

Concerning "born again" or "born from above" in John 3, translators universally go with "born again" since that is how Nicodemus understood the word, as Martin ably pointed out in a previous post.

 

[John of Japan]

Well we have some choices. Either Stephen got it wrong or the hears understood in some sense para in reference to the location Jacob bough as opposed to what Abraham bought.

I just looked back through the thread, and I'm not sure what you mean here.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

If one is born again, it is from above.

And if one is born from above, it is again.

 

[Yeshua1]

And if one is born from above, it is again.

Wouldn't the source of where one gets born again from be from above though?

 

[37818]

I just looked back through the thread, and I'm not sure what you mean here.

Jacob was placed in the sepulchre that Abraham bought. But the sepulchre location bought from "of the sons of Emmor the father of Sychem" was what Jacob had bought. Omission of the Greek para would not change the KJV translation, " of the sons of Emmor the father of Sychem."

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Wouldn't the source of where one gets born again from be from above though?

Indeed. I think you'll find I said as much in my Post #13.

 

[37818]

I afraid I don't think 'born over' is a particularly helpful translation. Anothen is a word that appears several times in the NT, and usually it means 'from above' or ;from the top' (e.g. Matthew 27:51; John 3:31; James 1:17) It can also mean 'from the beginning' (Luke 1:3; Acts 26:5) but only in Galatians 4:9, does it clearly mean 'again.'

So why have the large majority of translators rendered the word as 'again' in John 3? Because that is what Nicodemus understood our Lord to mean, since he replied, 'How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter into his mother's womb a second time and be born?' (3:4). So I'm sure that 'again' is the proper translation. However, it seems to me that the Lord Jesus may have chosen the word specifically because of its double meaning. "You, Nicodemus need a second birth if you are ever to see or enter the kingdom of God; but not an earthly or worldly birth; you need a birth that come from above!"

Checking my dictionary.

over . . . 31. once more; again: Do the work over. . . .
Random House Webster's College Dictionary, copyright (c) 1992, 1991 Random House Inc.

 

[John of Japan]

Jacob was placed in the sepulchre that Abraham bought. But the sepulchre location bought from "of the sons of Emmor the father of Sychem" was what Jacob had bought. Omission of the Greek para would not change the KJV translation, " of the sons of Emmor the father of Sychem."

Well actually in Greek the genitive case (possessive) is not usually used for direction (as in "from"). You do need the preposition para to portray that.

 

[37818]

Well actually in Greek the genitive case (possessive) is not usually used for direction (as in "from"). You do need the preposition para to portray that.

Ok. The Greek para is needed to get the translation "from." The KJV translators translated it "of." Now if we omit para from that passage in the Greek text, it would still be translated as " of the sons of Emmor the father of Sychem" as it is now in the KJV.
Now a case argument for Biblical errancy is that Abraham did not buy from them, Jacob did. So I have concluded that para should not be translated as "from" in that context (Acts 7:16-17). Since it was not Abraham that bought that location Jacob did. But the location Abraham did buy was where Jacob was placed. The hears would have understood Stephen's argument had meant that. That Jacob was placed where Abraham had bought, as opposed to the location Jacob had boubht. Understand?

 

[John of Japan]

Ok. The Greek para is needed to get the translation "from." The KJV translators translated it "of." Now if we omit para from that passage in the Greek text, it would still be translated as " of the sons of Emmor the father of Sychem" as it is now in the KJV.

No, sorry, this won't work. You are reading your modern English grammar into both the Greek and 1611 English. The para must be translated as from, even if that gives us a different difficulty to overcome in harmonizing the texts. And in 1611 English, the word "of" was sometimes used for what we say as "from."

Now a case argument for Biblical errancy is that Abraham did not buy from them, Jacob did. So I have concluded that para should not be translated as "from" in that context (Acts 7:16-17). Since it was not Abraham that bought that location Jacob did. But the location Abraham did buy was where Jacob was placed. The hears would have understood Stephen's argument had meant that. That Jacob was placed where Abraham had bought, as opposed to the location Jacob had boubht. Understand?

If Stephen made a mistake in history here, that doesn't bother my position of inerrancy in the slightest. The doctrine of verbal-plenary inspiration guarantees the accuracy of history in the Bible, but it does not guarantee the accuracy of a recorded sermon of anyone but Jesus. Stephen could have simply had a faulty memory here, and the doctrine of inerrancy is still intact.