Christ's Return: Spiritual or Physical?

[asterisktom]

Acts 1:9 - 11 is a favorite passage for those who believe Christ returns in a physical body. But it shows the manner Christ went and was to return. Manner, not form.

He went in a cloud. And in the cloud He was then out of their sight. There is no explicit mention of a corporeal (flesh-and-bones) body.

If we do imagine that this passage teaches a physical return of Christ we will have a hard time reconciling this with other cross-references.

And how do we reconcile Luke 24:39 with 1 Cor. 15:50?

Here are those two verses:

"Look at My hands and My feet. It is I Myself. Touch Me and see—for a spirit does not have flesh and bones, as you see I have.”"

"I tell you this, brothers: flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable."

Now unless we see the two underlined phrase as not being synonymous we have a serious problem; Christ is Lord of a Kingdom He cannot enter.

But I believe the answer is actually clear. The body Christ had post-resurrection was still part of His Incarnational mission.

But there is no reason now for Him to put on that body. It was part of His humiliation according to Phil. 2. He is glorified now, not humiliated, with the same glory that He had with the Father before His Incarnation, per His prayer in John 17.

 

[tyndale1946]

Ok Tom just for you I will get the ball rolling... You do know of course that the Literalist are really going to sink their teeth into this one... Brother Glen

Revelation 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

 

[tyndale1946]

Now Tom I'm going to throw a monkey wrench into the works... Question, those that were resurrected here, did they have to die again?... Brother Glen

Matthew 27:50 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.

27:51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;

27:52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,

27:53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

And not forgetting this one

Hebrews 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

 

[asterisktom]

Ok Tom just for you I will get the ball rolling... You do know of course that the Literalist are really going to sink their teeth into this one... Brother Glen

Revelation 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

I started to respond when Adam Clarke tapped me on the shoulder and said, "Yo, I got this. You go get some coffee and I'll answer this. And comb your hair."

…………
"Verse 7 "Behold, he cometh with clouds" - This relates to his coming to execute judgment on the enemies of his religion; perhaps to his coming to destroy Jerusalem, as he was to be particularly manifested to them that pierced him, which must mean the incredulous and rebellious Jews.

And all kindreds of the earth - Πασαι αἱ φυλαι της γης· All the tribes of the land. By this the Jewish people are most evidently intended, and therefore the whole verse may be understood as predicting the destruction of the Jews; and is a presumptive proof that the Apocalypse was written before the final overthrow of the Jewish state.

Even so, Amen - Ναι, αμην· Yea, Amen. It is true, so be it. Our Lord will come and execute judgment on the Jews and Gentiles. This the Jews and Romans particularly felt. "

 

[asterisktom]

...
And not forgetting this one

Hebrews 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

That Hebrews verse is what keeps me from being a Full-full Preterist. It is necessarily. Well, there are actually two non-futurist ways to read it, IMO; either
1. by "men" he was referring to those of his time and the judgment had already passed (which view I don't accept) or
2. the verse is a basic, gnomic truth. We all will die. We will all face God. The judgment here is not that of AD 70 but a meeting with God that occurs continually throughout history as mortals die. This makes the most sense to me.

The fact that judgment is singular is not a problem, as it is a common usage to have a singular noun refer to distributive (plural) event. We say things like, "That professor is very strict. His final exam is very difficult." Yet he has given the exam over many years.

Anyway this is how I see it. A preterist "see" : )

 

[asterisktom]

Now Tom I'm going to throw a monkey wrench into the works... Question, those that were resurrected here, did they have to die again?... Brother Glen

Matthew 27:50 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.

27:51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;

27:52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,

27:53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

LOL, Speaking of wrenches, my favorite mixed metaphor is "throwing a wretch into the buttermilk"!

The passage is intriguing. But I don't think these were 1 Cor. 15 resurrections but rather of the Lazarus type. I don't think the word "resurrection" is used for them. I believe they died again, having served their purpose of being attesting walking miracles.

 

[Yeshua1]

Acts 1:9 - 11 is a favorite passage for those who believe Christ returns in a physical body. But it shows the manner Christ went and was to return. Manner, not form.

He went in a cloud. And in the cloud He was then out of their sight. There is no explicit mention of a corporeal (flesh-and-bones) body.

If we do imagine that this passage teaches a physical return of Christ we will have a hard time reconciling this with other cross-references.

And how do we reconcile Luke 24:39 with 1 Cor. 15:50?

Here are those two verses:

"Look at My hands and My feet. It is I Myself. Touch Me and see—for a spirit does not have flesh and bones, as you see I have.”"

"I tell you this, brothers: flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable."

Now unless we see the two underlined phrase as not being synonymous we have a serious problem; Christ is Lord of a Kingdom He cannot enter.

But I believe the answer is actually clear. The body Christ had post-resurrection was still part of His Incarnational mission.

But there is no reason now for Him to put on that body. It was part of His humiliation according to Phil. 2. He is glorified now, not humiliated, with the same glory that He had with the Father before His Incarnation, per His prayer in John 17.

When Messiah comes back, his feet will be on the mount of Olives, and a massive earthquake occurs right at touchdown!

 

[asterisktom]

When Messiah comes back, his feet will be on the mount of Olives, and a massive earthquake occurs right at touchdown!

Excellent job of addressing my points!

 

[asterisktom]

Excellent job of addressing my points!

But seriously, this is one of the reasons I understood the validity of Preterism: the responses to points raised (like the apparent contradiction I posited) were either non sequiturs or crickets.

 

[Yeshua1]

But seriously, this is one of the reasons I understood the validity of Preterism: the responses to points raised (like the apparent contradiction I posited) were either non sequiturs or crickets.

Actually, the truth is that the church has always condemned full blown version of it as being heresy!

 

[tyndale1946]

LOL, Speaking of wrenches, my favorite mixed metaphor is "throwing a wretch into the buttermilk"!

The passage is intriguing. But I don't think these were 1 Cor. 15 resurrections but rather of the Lazarus type. I don't think the word "resurrection" is used for them. I believe they died again, having served their purpose of being attesting walking miracles.

Well Tom I'm not going to beat a dead horse... Scripture never says where they went or if they died again, so anything beyond that is conjecture... And since we don't know what went on after Jesus disappeared into the clouds that is to... Brother Glen

 

[David Kent]

"This same Jesus." not a spiritual Jesus.

 

[tyndale1946]

"This same Jesus." not a spiritual Jesus.

John 17:4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

Tom the floor is yours or any of you other brethren that have thoughts on these scriptures... Brother Glen

 

[kyredneck]

"This same Jesus." not a spiritual Jesus.

45 So also it is written, The first man Adam became a living soul. The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.
46 Howbeit that is not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; then that which is spiritual.
47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is of heaven. 1 Cor 15

 

[tyndale1946]

45 So also it is written, The first man Adam became a living soul. The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.
46 Howbeit that is not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; then that which is spiritual.
47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is of heaven. 1 Cor 15

Wondered when you were going to jump in here Kentucky... Makes a body think... I know what I believe but I don't have the answer... Brother Glen

1 John 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

 

[asterisktom]

Well Tom I'm not going to beat a dead horse... Scripture never says where they went or if they died again, so anything beyond that is conjecture... And since we don't know what went on after Jesus disappeared into the clouds that

Well Tom I'm not going to beat a dead horse... Scripture never says where they went or if they died again, so anything beyond that is conjecture... And since we don't know what went on after Jesus disappeared into the clouds that is to... Brother Glen

It is a relatively minor issue for me what happened to those who were brought back. And like you say speculation is all we can do.

 

[asterisktom]

"This same Jesus." not a spiritual Jesus.

Please quote the whole verse.

"Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever."

What was Jesus's "yesterday" - from the perspective of the writer of Hebrews? Physical? I think not.

His being in the flesh was part of his self-abasement and humiliation, a brief but necessary period. It doesn't strike us as humiliation because the world is so much with us. We are quite at home in the flesh. For our Lord it was definitely degradation of position.

 

[asterisktom]

John 17:4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

Tom the floor is yours or any of you other brethren that have thoughts on these scriptures... Brother Glen

This is the verse that just keeps unpacking, brother. What is involved in that glory that He had with the Father in eternity past? I cannot imagine - and do not think for a moment that Scripture teaches - that the two halves (so to speak) of the Son's eternity (before and after the brief period of "the days of His flesh") - should be so profoundly and essentially different.

 

[37818]

Acts 1:9 - 11 is a favorite passage for those who believe Christ returns in a physical body. But it shows the manner Christ went and was to return. Manner, not form.

He went in a cloud. And in the cloud He was then out of their sight. There is no explicit mention of a corporeal (flesh-and-bones) body.

If we do imagine that this passage teaches a physical return of Christ we will have a hard time reconciling this with other cross-references.

And how do we reconcile Luke 24:39 with 1 Cor. 15:50?

Here are those two verses:

"Look at My hands and My feet. It is I Myself. Touch Me and see—for a spirit does not have flesh and bones, as you see I have.”"

"I tell you this, brothers: flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable."

Now unless we see the two underlined phrase as not being synonymous we have a serious problem; Christ is Lord of a Kingdom He cannot enter.

But I believe the answer is actually clear. The body Christ had post-resurrection was still part of His Incarnational mission.

But there is no reason now for Him to put on that body. It was part of His humiliation according to Phil. 2. He is glorified now, not humiliated, with the same glory that He had with the Father before His Incarnation, per His prayer in John 17.

Christ was resurrrected in His immortal body of flesh and bone, not His mortal body of flesh and blood.

Christ was resurrected in the power of the Holy Spirit, not in the power of blood in the flesh by which He paid for our sins with the death of His soul on the cross.

[Romans 8:11]

A bodily resurrection, ascension and return. Physical and suppernatural (Matthew 24:27; Revelation 1:7).

 

[kyredneck]

Please quote the whole verse.

"Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever."

I think David was referring to Acts 1:11; "this same Jesus", KJV....