Christ's Return: Spiritual or Physical?

[kyredneck]

Revelation 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

7 Lo, he doth come with the clouds, and see him shall every eye, even those who did pierce him, and wail because of him shall all the tribes of the land. Yes! Amen! Rev 1 YLT

 

[asterisktom]

I think David was referring to Acts 1:11; "this same Jesus", KJV....

Oh.... Heh heh, so he was.

Anyway, my verse is also pertinant. And I already covered Acts 1:11 a few posts ago.

 

[asterisktom]

7 Lo, he doth come with the clouds, and see him shall every eye, even those who did pierce him, and wail because of him shall all the tribes of the land. Yes! Amen! Rev 1 YLT

I wish more Bibles were more faithful to the original. I am convinced "kindred" was a theological-driven choice, not from studying the word usage.

 

[asterisktom]

Christ was resurrrected in His immortal body of flesh and bone, not His mortal body of flesh and blood.

Christ was resurrected in the power of the Holy Spirit, not in the power of blood in the flesh by which He paid for our sins with the death of His soul on the cross.

[Romans 8:11]

A bodily resurrection, ascension and return. Physical and suppernatural (Matthew 24:27; Revelation 1:7).

Those verses have nothing to do with the point you are trying to make, that He will return physically. Here is another verse for the cricket chorus, Heb. 5:6-7 :

6 As he says also in another place, You are a priest forever after the order of Melchizedek. 7 Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared

 

[37818]

Those verses have nothing to do with the point you are trying to make, that He will return physically. Here is another verse for the cricket chorus, Heb. 5:6-7 :

6 As he says also in another place, You are a priest forever after the order of Melchizedek. 7 Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared

Yes. Prior to His two deaths on the cross, He was flesh being flesh and blood. In His bodily resurrection He stated, He had "flesh and bone" (Luke 23:39). And even now as an immortal man (Hebrews 13:8) He is in Heaven as our mediator (Isaiah 53:12; Hebrews 9:12; Hebrews 9:24; 1 Timothy 2:5) until His second appearing (Hebrews 9:28; Acts of the Apostles 1:9-11; 1 John 3:2).

 

[Dave G]

Acts 1:9 - 11 is a favorite passage for those who believe Christ returns in a physical body. But it shows the manner Christ went and was to return. Manner, not form.

He went in a cloud. And in the cloud He was then out of their sight. There is no explicit mention of a corporeal (flesh-and-bones) body.

Physical, the same as when He was taken up.
The explicit mention can be found in other passages.

Here's the first passage you mentioned:

" And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;
11 which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven." ( Acts of the Apostles 1:10-11 )

Take all the information from the endings of the previous 4 Gospels ( Matthew 28:9, Luke 24:36-53, John 20:19-28 for example ), as a composite, and carry them over to Acts of the Apostles 1:9-11.

I'm not sure why this is so hard to believe, Tom.

And how do we reconcile Luke 24:39 with 1 Cor. 15:50?

We "reconcile it" by believing all that is said in God's word, because it is God's word, Tom:

"Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.
40 And when he had thus spoken, he shewed them [his] hands and [his] feet.
41 And while they yet believed not for joy, and wondered, he said unto them, Have ye here any meat?
42 And they gave him a piece of a broiled fish, and of an honeycomb.
43 And he took [it], and did eat before them." ( Luke 24:39-43 )

He appeared before them as a man, with flesh and bones ( but not blood ) and then proceeded to eat a piece of fish and some honey.
He was then taken up in the same form as they had seen Him:

" And he led them out as far as to Bethany, and he lifted up his hands, and blessed them.
51 And it came to pass, while he blessed them, he was parted from them, and carried up into heaven." ( Luke 24:50-51 ).

The context of Him being taken up, is the same context of Him urging them to behold His hands and His feet...there is no mention made of Him assuming spirit before He was carried up.

The "manner" is, "taken up" / "carried up".
The "form" is, physically.
This has only happened to two other men in all of history:

Enoch ( Genesis 5:24 ).
Elijah ( 2 Kings 2:1-11 ).

He didn't depart as a spirit, and He will not come again as a spirit.


Here's the next one:

" Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption." ( 1 Corinthians 15:50 )

Flesh and blood shall not inherit the kingdom of God...it doesn't say anything about flesh and bones not being able to inherit the kingdom of God.


Again, I'm not sure why you find this so hard to believe.

 

[Dave G]

But there is no reason now for Him to put on that body. It was part of His humiliation according to Phil. 2. He is glorified now, not humiliated, with the same glory that He had with the Father before His Incarnation, per His prayer in John 17.

He is not humiliated.
But Scripture says He is now a man ( Hebrews 2:16-18 ).

Scripture also tells us that there are terrestrial bodies and celestial bodies ( 1 Corinthians 15:35-44 )
He has a body.
It is glorified, not the same as before the resurrection.

We will have bodies.
They will be glorified ( Romans 8:30 ).

Believers are members of His flesh, and of His bones ( Ephesians 5:30 )
We will be made partakers of that which He now has...resurrected, perfect and painless glorified bodies, in the celestial sense.

" Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is." ( 1 John 3:2 )

Not spirit.

He has the same glory that He did when He was spirit with the Father ( because He has gone to sit at His right hand, the same as when He was spirit ), but He also now has a celestial body, the same as His brethren ( believers ) will have at the first resurrection, who have been waiting for their spiritual "house" ( 2 Corinthians 5:1-4 ) all their earthly lives.

The "glory" that He now has, is to sit at His Father's right hand...it has nothing to do with His form.
Once again, I'm not sure why you find this so hard to believe.


May God bless you sir.

 

[Dave G]

I wish more Bibles were more faithful to the original.

Well, as I see it, we only need one.

I have the one I need, and I use it regularly.
That said, we now have several things that we do not agree with:


You claim that the tribulation has already happened...it hasn't.
In my estimation, it should be obvious, because we're not all dead and in Hell, or living in the thousand-year reign of Christ from Jerusalem.

You claim that Christ will not rule and reign from Jerusalem on the throne ( thrones are locations, not the actual seat, but the representative "seat". The "seat of government" for Great Britain is the city of London, for example, and the "county seat" of Illinois' Cook County is Chicago ) of His father David ( Isaiah 2:1-4, Isaiah 9:6-7, Isaiah 16:5, Zechariah 2:10-12, Zechariah 8:3, Micah 4:1, Daniel 2:44, Luke 1:32-33 ).

You claim that Christ will come as a spirit, and not as the Son of Man with a physical body ( Luke 24:36-43, John 20:27, 1 John 1:1 ).




Tom, with all due respect, I cannot agree with you on any of these subjects.

To me, you are advocating things that the Bible simply does not teach.

 

[Dave G]

45 So also it is written, The first man Adam became a living soul. The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.
46 Howbeit that is not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; then that which is spiritual.
47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is of heaven. 1 Cor 15

" There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam [was made] a quickening spirit.
46 Howbeit that [was] not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
47 The first man [is] of the earth, earthy: the second man [is] the Lord from heaven.
48 As [is] the earthy, such [are] they also that are earthy: and as [is] the heavenly, such [are] they also that are heavenly.
49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly." ( 1 Corinthians 15:44-49 )

My "take":

-There is a natural body and a spiritual body...I understand this literally.
The natural body is composed of flesh, blood and bones, whose life is in the blood ( Genesis 9:4, Leviticus 17:11 ).
The spiritual body is composed of flesh and bones ( Luke 24:39, 1 Corinthians 15:35-44 ), whose life is in Christ ( John 11:25, John 14:16, Colossians 3:4 ).

Now, I see Scripture contrasting the earthly side of mankind ( believers and unbelievers ) with the heavenly side of mankind ( glorified believers ):

-Verse 45: The first Adam was made a living soul ( spiritual essence of the earthly man, God breathed fleshly life into him ( Genesis 2:7 ), the last "Adam" a quickening ( life-giving ) spirit ( spiritual essence of the heavenly man, Christ, which believers are reflections of, and God has breathed spiritual life into them ( John 20:22, James 1:18, 1 John 1:5, 1 John 5:11-12 ).
-Verse 46: Howbeit ( nevertheless ) that was not first ( the first Adam ) which is spiritual, but that which is natural...afterward, that which is spiritual ( Christ ). Adam was a natural man with a natural body. Christ is now a spiritual man with a spiritual body.
-Verse 47: The first man ( Adam ) is of the earth, "earthy", the second is the Lord from Heaven.
-Verse 48: As is the "earthy", such are they also that are "earthy" ( "in the flesh", natural, please see Romans 8:5-8, 1 Corinthians 2:14 ), and as is the heavenly, such are they ( believers, please see Romans 8:9-11, 1 Corinthians 2:15-16 ) also that are heavenly.
-Verse 49: As we ( believers ) have borne the image ( fleshly body ) of the earthy ( Adam ), we shall also bear the image ( spiritual body ) of the heavenly ( Christ ).

That is how I currently see it.



God bless you sir.

 

[asterisktom]

Physical, the same as when He was taken up.
The explicit mention can be found in other passages.

Here's the first passage you mentioned:

" And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;
11 which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven." ( Acts of the Apostles 1:10-11 )

Take all the information from the endings of the previous 4 Gospels ( Matthew 28:9, Luke 24:36-53, John 20:19-28 for example ), as a composite, and carry them over to Acts of the Apostles 1:9-11.

I'm not sure why this is so hard to believe, Tom.



We "reconcile it" by believing all that is said in God's word, because it is God's word, Tom:

"Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.
40 And when he had thus spoken, he shewed them [his] hands and [his] feet.
41 And while they yet believed not for joy, and wondered, he said unto them, Have ye here any meat?
42 And they gave him a piece of a broiled fish, and of an honeycomb.
43 And he took [it], and did eat before them." ( Luke 24:39-43 )

He appeared before them as a man, with flesh and bones ( but not blood ) and then proceeded to eat a piece of fish and some honey.
He was then taken up in the same form as they had seen Him:

" And he led them out as far as to Bethany, and he lifted up his hands, and blessed them.
51 And it came to pass, while he blessed them, he was parted from them, and carried up into heaven." ( Luke 24:50-51 ).

The context of Him being taken up, is the same context of Him urging them to behold His hands and His feet...there is no mention made of Him assuming spirit before He was carried up.

The "manner" is, "taken up" / "carried up".
The "form" is, physically.
This has only happened to two other men in all of history:

Enoch ( Genesis 5:24 ).
Elijah ( 2 Kings 2:1-11 ).

He didn't depart as a spirit, and He will not come again as a spirit.


Here's the next one:

" Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption." ( 1 Corinthians 15:50 )

Flesh and blood shall not inherit the kingdom of God...it doesn't say anything about flesh and bones not being able to inherit the kingdom of God.


Again, I'm not sure why you find this so hard to believe.

I'm not sure why you wasted all that typing. Most of what you wrote I totally agree with. Besides, I thought you had walked away from this discussion.

But, since you insist, lets look at that last part.

1. I find it hard to believe - anymore - because I finally got past the tradition of men and understood what the Bible says. I believed your way for several decades.

2. I am astounded that you make a distinction between flesh and blood versus flesh and bones. That is so silly I hardly know where to start. This shows the lengths people will go rather than give up their manmade doctrine.

 

[asterisktom]

He is not humiliated.
But Scripture says He is now a man ( Hebrews 2:16-18 ).

No. Try again. Those verses describe His Incarnation. It says nothing about how He is now.

Scripture also tells us that there are terrestrial bodies and celestial bodies ( 1 Corinthians 15:35-44 )
He has a body.
It is glorified, not the same as before the resurrection.

We will have bodies.
They will be glorified ( Romans 8:30 ).

I don't know why you even say this. Do you think that I believe in Nirvana, or what? Of course we will have glorified bodies.

Believers are members of His flesh, and of His bones ( Ephesians 5:30 )
We will be made partakers of that which He now has...resurrected, perfect and painless glorified bodies, in the celestial sense.

Very few versions have the addition of "flesh and bones". Check a few other versions out or the lexicons.

" Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is." ( 1 John 3:2 )

Not spirit.

You are reading your own views into that passage. Yes, we will be like Him.

He has the same glory that He did when He was spirit with the Father ( because He has gone to sit at His right hand, the same as when He was spirit ), but He also now has a celestial body, the same as His brethren ( believers ) will have at the first resurrection, who have been waiting for their spiritual "house" ( 2 Corinthians 5:1-4 ) all their earthly lives.

The "glory" that He now has, is to sit at His Father's right hand...it has nothing to do with His form.
Once again, I'm not sure why you find this so hard to believe.


May God bless you sir.

Well, I give up. I hope and pray that you will study this matter more carefully, brother.

 

[asterisktom]

Tom, with all due respect, I cannot agree with you on any of these subjects.

To me, you are advocating things that the Bible simply does not teach.

And you are advocating things I used to advocate for many years. It took a long time for me to actually see what the Bible teaches - and not what the tradition of men say it teaches. I'm going to stick a fork in this one.

Take care.

 

[Dave G]

Tom,

I've never walked away from this thread ( and have never commented on it until today ), only previous ones that dealt with subjects like Preterism.
With respect to Preterism, I am not going to respond to you in anymore threads of that type, because I believe that you are wrong in your conclusions.

With that said, I'm going to add two other subjects, and I will, by the grace of God, do my best to refrain from interacting with you in any threads about these 3 subjects:

Preterism
Christ's Second Coming.
Christ's Millennial Kingdom.

I'm also going to add a caveat:
I may reply to other posters in them, but I will not reply to you.


May God bless you richly both in this life, and in the life to come.

 

[asterisktom]

Tom,

I've never walked away from this thread ( and have never commented on it until today ), only previous ones that dealt with subjects like Preterism.
With respect to Preterism, I am not going to respond to you in anymore threads of that type, because I believe that you are wrong in your conclusions.

With that said, I'm going to add two other subjects, and I will, by the grace of God, do my best to refrain from interacting with you in any threads about these 3 subjects:

Preterism
Christ's Second Coming.
Christ's Millennial Kingdom.

I'm also going to add a caveat:
I may reply to other posters in them, but I will not reply to you.


May God bless you richly both in this life, and in the life to come.

But don't you understand that this is a Preterist thread? Oh well.

 

[Lodic]

This is a very interesting thread, so I am going to spend my nickel's worth.
Acts 1:9-11 has already been discussed, but I believe it's important to go over again. The disciples saw a physical body going up into the clouds. The angels told them that Jesus would return in the same manner. As I see it, that manner involves His return to be physically, visibly, and in glory.
In 1 Corinthians 15:21 and 23, the return of Christ is connected with the resurrection of the dead. In a broader context, verses 12-19 speak of the importance of His resurrection. I will confess that the doctrine of Christ's (and our) bodily resurrection of the dead is one of the main reasons I am a partial preterist.

 

[MB]

Acts 1:9 - 11 is a favorite passage for those who believe Christ returns in a physical body. But it shows the manner Christ went and was to return. Manner, not form.

He went in a cloud. And in the cloud He was then out of their sight. There is no explicit mention of a corporeal (flesh-and-bones) body.

If we do imagine that this passage teaches a physical return of Christ we will have a hard time reconciling this with other cross-references.

And how do we reconcile Luke 24:39 with 1 Cor. 15:50?

Here are those two verses:

"Look at My hands and My feet. It is I Myself. Touch Me and see—for a spirit does not have flesh and bones, as you see I have.”"

"I tell you this, brothers: flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable."

Now unless we see the two underlined phrase as not being synonymous we have a serious problem; Christ is Lord of a Kingdom He cannot enter.

But I believe the answer is actually clear. The body Christ had post-resurrection was still part of His Incarnational mission.

But there is no reason now for Him to put on that body. It was part of His humiliation according to Phil. 2. He is glorified now, not humiliated, with the same glory that He had with the Father before His Incarnation, per His prayer in John 17.

I think that maybe you under estimate Christ. He is God and nothing is impossible with God,
MB

 

[Yeshua1]

This is a very interesting thread, so I am going to spend my nickel's worth.
Acts 1:9-11 has already been discussed, but I believe it's important to go over again. The disciples saw a physical body going up into the clouds. The angels told them that Jesus would return in the same manner. As I see it, that manner involves His return to be physically, visibly, and in glory.
In 1 Corinthians 15:21 and 23, the return of Christ is connected with the resurrection of the dead. In a broader context, verses 12-19 speak of the importance of His resurrection. I will confess that the doctrine of Christ's (and our) bodily resurrection of the dead is one of the main reasons I am a partial preterist.

The second coming event will be the end of history as we now observe it, as the sky will split apart, and all eyes shall see Him returning, and he will set up His own kingdom now! The Christians will also experience the physical resurrection into same glorified body of Christ, both those who died in him and still alive, that did not happen AD 70!

 

[Yeshua1]

I think that maybe you under estimate Christ. He is God and nothing is impossible with God,
MB

Jesus is in His physically glorified body, and still has his scars to show that!

 

[Lodic]

The second coming event will be the end of history as we now observe it, as the sky will split apart, and all eyes shall see Him returning, and he will set up His own kingdom now! The Christians will also experience the physical resurrection into same glorified body of Christ, both those who died in him and still alive, that did not happen AD 70!

As a Partial Preterist, I believe that a great deal of prophecy was fulfilled in AD 70 - but not all prophecy. I definitely agree that the 2nd Coming will be "the end of history as we know it". Based on Scripture, we agree regarding the physical resurrection of the saints as well. That, indeed, is our blessed hope.

 

[asterisktom]

I think that maybe you under estimate Christ. He is God and nothing is impossible with God,
MB

I think that maybe you underestimate the truthfulness of Christ. He said all these things will be fulfilled in "this generation".

See? I can shoot from the hip, too. Now if you want to actually answer the points and verses I brought up, brother, then I will give your response the respect it deserves.