Featured The Elect and Not Are Twins

Why are all sinners condemned to, the death? Why is it not the plan of God? Is not God responsible for his own plan?

Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage. Hebrews 2:14,15

The children! What children? The children of the what is man, anthrōpos, singular of Hebrews 6:6
He! Who is he? The Son of Man (Singular) of verse 6, who is the Son of the living God.

Why was man, Adam and his children and the Son of Man (Singular) all created and or born flesh and blood.

Because of the death of verse 9. The article, the, is there in the Greek. A very specific death. That is why all are flesh and blood.

Why? Verse 14, that through, the death, he, the singular Son of man, manifested Son of God 1 John 3:8, might destroy him who had the power of, the death.

1 John 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

Obviously, the death, existed before Adam was created and needed to be destroyed, along with him who had the power thereof.
Redemption, from death, through the shed blood was foreordained before God created man.

We need to stop trying to take away God's glory in our salvation. IMHO

 

I agree, Hank,
But I can tell you from experience that not many I know of see the Bible as I do, and to me, it's very discouraging.
I get stamped with a label quite often even on this forum, and I admit to being tempted to respond in like fashion when I get stamped.

It's also my sincere desire not to offend...however, I see things like a mechanic, and when I see something that's broken, I tend not to be very tactful in stating what's on my mind.

Again, I'm learning, as personal interaction hasn't been my strong suit over the past 40 years as a believer...historically, I've tended to stay away from people most of the time..but I'll keep trying.


My apologies, sir.

 

Hank, you and I disagree on the extent of the Fall's impact on humanity. I believe man is depraved in all his faculties because on sin, although he is not always as depraved as he can be. For instance, not everyone is going to be as evil as Joseph Mengele.

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk

 

"I'm not seeking a debate...my only focus is to show you Scripture, and hope you see it."

God needs your help because you don't trust in his power. You are a synergist.

 

You're quite right in that I am not completely trusting in His power...
So, from here on out, I'll trust the Lord to show you.

That doesn't mean that I won't reply to you, it just means that I'm going to sit back and let you beat me up as often as you like, without getting my hopes up that my replies will make a difference.



May He bless you in all things.

 

One question though...

Why are you in this section?

 

Keep on keeping the faith brother

 

OK i see the resistance to evil in the life of an unbeliever as part of the common grace gifts of God.
Lack of that resistance - an overthrowing of common decency wrought by and given to mankind via the Holy Spirit.

 

Stop that.

The Devil gives the best excuses for apathy.

If only God had the capacity to teach you how to teach others and make disciples of others rather than believe in some lazy randomly activated gnostic masterhood.

Jesus is a synergist and our exemplar of how to live. He could have zapped around here and there, at the blink of an eye have everyone understand things by force.

Sometimes you get a get well soon card or birthday card from the entire family with everyone's name on it, and the family will chooses the smallest "runt" to deliver the message, they couldn't pick any better qualified. So God does the same.

Even Jesus rode in on a donkey.

The problem is you have trouble crediting God in the clear result of someone else's action.

Psalm 127

3Behold, children are a gift of the LORD,
The fruit of the womb is a reward.

I could look at you and say you are a gift from God and no matter what you do right God takes the credit.


But in the twisted version of false humility, You are not a gift, eveyone is a filthy rag, everyone is trash, nothing is good in this world, we accuse that they love evil more then good because we saw their evil deeds. We don't see a gift. Everyone deserves hell. Your in a mess. And your mess is so massive it must require God's divine expenditure and complete power just to teach you to tie your own shoes.

Suppose we found this thing "synergy" Who do you think created it?

The guy who invented Kindness, Love and Compassion never let his pride and vanity get in the way to brag about it.



Matthew 5
19“Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Matthew 28
16But the eleven disciples proceeded to Galilee, to the mountain which Jesus had designated. 17When they saw Him, they worshiped Him; but some were doubtful. 18And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. 19“Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, 20teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.”

 

Are you saying God hated Esau in the womb? As for that poem it has nothing to do with scripture. SOLA SCRIPTURA please.
When did God say he hated Esau , while yet in the womb or after Esau sold His birthright for some "Red Stew' ?

Plus Esau married Hittite women which was against the ordinance of God to Abraham to not marry of Canaanites. Why, they had Nephilim blood line.
In the New Testament, Esau’s choice to sell his birthright is used as an example of ungodliness—a “godless” person who will put physical desires over spiritual blessings (Hebrews 12:15-17). By his negative example, Esau teaches us to hold fast to what is truly important, even if it means denying the appetites of the flesh. Both Old and New Testaments use the story of Jacob and Esau to illustrate God’s calling and election. God chose the younger Jacob to carry on the Abrahamic Covenant, while Esau was providentially excluded from the Messianic line (Malachi 1:2-3; Romans 9:11-14).

The New Covenant represents Jacob and Esau the Old. It would be Mother Miryam (Mary) and the Apostles who would carry on the Abrahamic Covenant Older must serve the Younger and the younger is to whom all truth is given. Though Christ went down to all the peoples of the past and saved the captives it is the New Covenant the Blessings are given. For today,those who reject Christ are like Esau and are called Edom (Red) they are marked and unclean. Esau was the favored of his father while Jacob his mother . God's disapproval of Esau was based on Esau's lax approach to the Birthright , he had NO regard for it and forfeited being the lineage of Christ..
God is not a man who by whim of emotion hated Esau. So there must be a good reason. And we should look at that reason so we can avoid being like Esau. As we study the story of Esau, we discover there are actually several reasons why God hated him. Again , but looking more deeply we see in scripture:

Esau was self-centered, living for the moment, and godless. Being the firstborn had no value. He preferred to be out hunting rather than tending to his inheritance and learning the ways of Adonai from his father and grandfather.

His grandfather?! Yes, if Abraham was 100 years old when Isaac was born, and died at 175, then he was alive for the first 15 years of the Esau’s life. Esau would have heard the story of creation and the story of the flood. He would have heard from Abraham how the Creator called him from the land of Ur and promised to give him land and a family so large that no one could count them. He would have heard first-hand how his grandmother, Sarah, was barren and by a miracle of God gave birth to his father when she was 90. He would also hear how his parents had prayed for 20 years for his birth. Or maybe all those stories bored him. Maybe, like so many teenagers today, he headed out the door to do his own thing rather than having to listen to another long, boring story.
Obviously it all meant nothing to him because he sold his birthright to his twin brother Jacob for a bowl of red stew. Why? According to Esau he was “about to die” from hunger. Seriously? This man was a prince. His grandfather, Abraham, had accumulated so much wealth that he had to split off from Lot. His father Isaac added more to that and had so much that the Philistines asked him to leave their area. And yet here he was, starving to death ready to give up the right of firstborn for a bowl of red stew!
So what exactly did Esau sell? What was the right of firstborn?

When it comes to inheritance, the firstborn is entitled to a double portion. That means if there are two children, the firstborn gets two-thirds of the estate, and the second child gets one-third. Likewise, if there are three children, the estate is divided into four, the firstborn getting half, and the remaining two children one-quarter each.

So maybe Esau was thinking that one-third of the estate was plenty. But there’s more.

The firstborn becomes the head of the family. As the head, he operates in the role of the priest in the family. In this case, he would be the one to lead the family in the worship of Adonai, teaching the family His statutes, laws, and ordinances. But wait! What laws? The giving of the law didn’t happen until Sinai.

When we look at Genesis 26, where God met with Isaac, God explained He was going to bless Isaac “because Abraham heeded what I said and did what I told him to do – he followed my decrees, my regulations, and my teachings.” So there was something that Abraham knew about God, and he passed that on to Isaac who in turn passed it on to the twins. Or did he?

Remember, Genesis 25 tells us that Esau became a skillful hunter while Jacob stayed in the tents. It was in the tents that Jacob learned from his parents the way of Adonai. It was in the tents that he would observe his father leading the family, worshiping God, and running the family business. Jacob would know the value of the covenant promise God gave to Abraham and confirmed with Isaac. He would know that the greatest inheritance for the firstborn is that covenant promise.

But Esau spent his time doing what he wanted. And what he wanted was to hunt and be outside. And when he came in, he wanted to eat. It reminds me of how we are today with a need for instant gratification. Think about it. Jacob was cutting a deal. He offered Esau instant gratification – a bowl of red stew – in exchange for the covenant promise from God.

At the snap of Esau’s finger he could have had a team of servants prepare a feast for him. But he couldn’t wait. He didn’t want to wait. He didn’t want to think about the consequences, because he wanted instant gratification. Whatever God had to offer him, he wasn’t interested. So when Jacob offered him a trade, he took it.

So what can we learn from this?

• We should have our priorities in order, keeping God and family in the forefront of our minds.
• The promises of God, even when they seem slow in coming, far outweigh the satisfaction of the moment.
• We should always stop and think about the consequences of our choices.

Not in the womb but in Esau's bad choices.

 

I'd like just a bit of clarification from your perspective about the post.

Is there not a difference between the "common grace gifts," in which you include "resistance to evil in the life of an unbeliever," and that which is innate and part of every human nature?

Is it not true that, according to Romans 2:12 -16, all humankind have been born with the "law" (decalogue) of God "written on their hearts" so by their innate human nature have a conscience of what is basically right and wrong?

Are not "common grace gifts" such as the Scriptures state in "God rains on the just and unjust" actually "presents" disposed upon all according to the purpose of God, in which are displayed upon humankind, but not particularly Holy Spirit work?

I do not seek to derail the thread, but wonder at how inclusive you are taking "common grace" when such things as resistance to evil isn't a gift, but that which is a part of the form of the adam (humans).

 

You really are on another page:

15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.
16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that hath mercy.
17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, For this very purpose did I raise thee up, that I might show in thee my power, and that my name might be published abroad in all the earth.
18 So then he hath mercy on whom he will, and whom he will be hardeneth.
19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he still find fault? For who withstandeth his will?
20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why didst thou make me thus?
21 Or hath not the potter a right over the clay, from the same lump to make one part a vessel unto honor, and another unto dishonor? Ro 9

...compare with what was revealed a few sentences earlier:

29 For whom he foreknew, he also foreordained to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren:
30 and whom he foreordained, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified. Ro 8

...yea, depending on whether the potter created you for honor...

PLEASE get on the same page!:

8 That is, it is not the children of the flesh that are children of God; but the children of the promise are reckoned for a seed. Ro 9

YOU are reading...FORCING 'Christ the promised seed' into the text. Christ is not even mentioned, it's the CHILDREN of promise in view here.

26 But the Jerusalem that is above is free, which is our mother.
27 For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; Break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: For more are the children of the desolate than of her that hath the husband.
28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are children of promise.
29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, so also it is now. Gal 4

 

I don't think you really know what God has the capacity to show someone, because I don't think that you genuinely know Him.
At all.

Am I reading that right?
Did you just refer to the Lord God Almighty as, " The guy who invented Kindness, Love and Compassion", who has pride and vanity that He would never let get in the way of something?

utilyan,
If you knew, right now, what it is that you are doing, and Who it is that you are treating so lightly, I think you'd be terrified.

In fact, I know you will be.

I think that what you really need, is a good old fashioned dose of what the Bible calls, "the fear of the Lord".

To me, you're a mocker, a ridiculer, a challenger and a man who sees God as he wants Him to be...not as He is.
You simply amaze me with your attitude towards God, your stabbing repartee towards other people who disagree with you, and I don't believe I've ever seen such audacity towards Him from a professing believer.
Ever.


So much so, that I am very afraid for you.



I'm sure you will find this a relief, but this is my last reply to you in this thread, and most probably, in any thread.
I wish you well, but I don't think that it will help you very much.

Apparently, you have a much greater problem with God than I initially thought.
...and it doesn't just end with His words.

 

And I see God's restraining hand in spite of man's depravity and evil. I am done with my participation in this thread. There is nothing more I can add. Adieu.

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk

 

You know what Kyred, I have noticed that people who believe in the trinity are quite often arrogant and rude. They believe for certain that they are right and all non trinitarians are wrong. They often give proof texts proving their view and refuse JW and mormon texts, how arrogant and rude and snooty.

 

No we are wicked to the core.apart from being the image of God.

Again a restraining gift of God, the conscience.

All that is truly good comes from God.

I take 2 Thessalonians 2:7 as the restraining influence given as a gift from God lest total chaos abound.

2 Thessalonians 2:7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way.

 

Adios

 

But you're not including Paul's words after

Romans 9:30-33 (KJV) What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.
But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.
Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;
As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

Paul is answering why Someone who is of the seed of Abraham could be cast off, be prepared for destruction. Because they are not of the promised seed--Christ.

 

...and you're ignoring God's sovereign election of INDIVIDUALS that dominates the text:

15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.
16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that hath mercy.
17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, For this very purpose did I raise thee up, that I might show in thee my power, and that my name might be published abroad in all the earth.
18 So then he hath mercy on whom he will, and whom he will be hardeneth.
19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he still find fault? For who withstandeth his will?
20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why didst thou make me thus?
21 Or hath not the potter a right over the clay, from the same lump to make one part a vessel unto honor, and another unto dishonor?
22 What if God, willing to show his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering vessels of wrath fitted unto destruction:
23 and that he might make known the riches of his glory upon vessels of mercy, which he afore prepared unto glory,
24 even us, whom he also called, not from the Jews only, but also from the Gentiles? Ro 9