A new thread bashing God's sovereignty in salvation was started.
Calvin & Arminius were both wrong
No matter how it's sliced, saying that one has natural power to say yes or no to grace is to say that those who say yes do so because they are inherently better than those who say no.
But God was wise to make Jacob and Esau twins. While yet in the womb. Each equally innocent. Neither having done any good or evil. Both conceived of the same act, under the same star, of the same heritage, both with the same nurturing and enviroment. In every way equal and level, and neither being given a choice, God accepted one, and rejected the other.
If Grace were resistible, no one would be saved.
Batter my heart, three-person'd God, for you
As yet but knock, breathe, shine, and seek to mend;
That I may rise and stand, o'erthrow me, and bend
Your force to break, blow, burn, and make me new.
I, like an usurp'd town to another due,
Labor to admit you, but oh, to no end;
Reason, your viceroy in me, me should defend,
But is captiv'd, and proves weak or untrue.
Yet dearly I love you, and would be lov'd fain,
But am betroth'd unto your enemy;
Divorce me, untie or break that knot again,
Take me to you, imprison me, for I,
Except you enthrall me, never shall be free,
Nor ever chaste, except you ravish me.
—John Donne
Are you saying God hated Esau in the womb? As for that poem it has nothing to do with scripture. SOLA SCRIPTURA please.
When did God say he hated Esau , while yet in the womb or after Esau sold His birthright for some "Red Stew' ?
Plus Esau married Hittite women which was against the ordinance of God to Abraham to not marry of Canaanites. Why, they had Nephilim blood line.
In the New Testament, Esau’s choice to sell his birthright is used as an example of ungodliness—a “godless” person who will put physical desires over spiritual blessings (
Hebrews 12:15-17). By his negative example, Esau teaches us to hold fast to what is truly important, even if it means denying the appetites of the flesh. Both Old and New Testaments use the story of Jacob and Esau to illustrate God’s calling and election. God chose the younger Jacob to carry on the Abrahamic Covenant, while Esau was providentially excluded from the Messianic line (
Malachi 1:2-3;
Romans 9:11-14).
The New Covenant represents Jacob and Esau the Old. It would be Mother Miryam (Mary) and the Apostles who would carry on the Abrahamic Covenant Older must serve the Younger and the younger is to whom all truth is given. Though Christ went down to all the peoples of the past and saved the captives it is the New Covenant the Blessings are given. For today,those who reject Christ are like Esau and are called Edom (Red) they are marked and unclean. Esau was the favored of his father while Jacob his mother . God's disapproval of Esau was based on Esau's lax approach to the Birthright , he had NO regard for it and forfeited being the lineage of Christ..
God is not a man who by whim of emotion hated Esau. So there must be a good reason. And we should look at that reason so we can avoid being like Esau. As we study the story of Esau, we discover there are actually several reasons why God hated him. Again , but looking more deeply we see in scripture:
Esau was self-centered, living for the moment, and godless. Being the firstborn had no value. He preferred to be out hunting rather than tending to his inheritance and learning the ways of Adonai from his father and grandfather.
His grandfather?! Yes, if Abraham was 100 years old when Isaac was born, and died at 175, then he was alive for the first 15 years of the Esau’s life. Esau would have heard the story of creation and the story of the flood. He would have heard from Abraham how the Creator called him from the land of Ur and promised to give him land and a family so large that no one could count them. He would have heard first-hand how his grandmother, Sarah, was barren and by a miracle of God gave birth to his father when she was 90. He would also hear how his parents had prayed for 20 years for his birth. Or maybe all those stories bored him. Maybe, like so many teenagers today, he headed out the door to do his own thing rather than having to listen to another long, boring story.
Obviously it all meant nothing to him because he sold his birthright to his twin brother Jacob for a bowl of red stew. Why? According to Esau he was “about to die” from hunger. Seriously? This man was a prince. His grandfather, Abraham, had accumulated so much wealth that he had to split off from Lot. His father Isaac added more to that and had so much that the Philistines asked him to leave their area. And yet here he was, starving to death ready to give up the right of firstborn for a bowl of red stew!
So what exactly did Esau sell? What was the right of firstborn?
When it comes to inheritance, the firstborn is entitled to a double portion. That means if there are two children, the firstborn gets two-thirds of the estate, and the second child gets one-third. Likewise, if there are three children, the estate is divided into four, the firstborn getting half, and the remaining two children one-quarter each.
So maybe Esau was thinking that one-third of the estate was plenty. But there’s more.
The firstborn becomes the head of the family. As the head, he operates in the role of the priest in the family. In this case, he would be the one to lead the family in the worship of Adonai, teaching the family His statutes, laws, and ordinances. But wait! What laws? The giving of the law didn’t happen until Sinai.
When we look at Genesis 26, where God met with Isaac, God explained He was going to bless Isaac “because Abraham heeded what I said and did what I told him to do – he followed my decrees, my regulations, and my teachings.” So there was something that Abraham knew about God, and he passed that on to Isaac who in turn passed it on to the twins. Or did he?
Remember, Genesis 25 tells us that Esau became a skillful hunter while Jacob stayed in the tents. It was in the tents that Jacob learned from his parents the way of Adonai. It was in the tents that he would observe his father leading the family, worshiping God, and running the family business. Jacob would know the value of the covenant promise God gave to Abraham and confirmed with Isaac. He would know that the greatest inheritance for the firstborn is that covenant promise.
But Esau spent his time doing what he wanted. And what he wanted was to hunt and be outside. And when he came in, he wanted to eat. It reminds me of how we are today with a need for instant gratification. Think about it. Jacob was cutting a deal. He offered Esau instant gratification – a bowl of red stew – in exchange for the covenant promise from God.
At the snap of Esau’s finger he could have had a team of servants prepare a feast for him. But he couldn’t wait. He didn’t
want to wait. He didn’t want to think about the consequences, because he wanted instant gratification. Whatever God had to offer him, he wasn’t interested. So when Jacob offered him a trade, he took it.
So what can we learn from this?
- We should have our priorities in order, keeping God and family in the forefront of our minds.
- The promises of God, even when they seem slow in coming, far outweigh the satisfaction of the moment.
- We should always stop and think about the consequences of our choices.
Not in the womb but in Esau's bad choices.
