The objector is saying, "why did you make me of the seed of Abraham if you're just going to reject me." The pessimistic Jewish objector is all throughout Romans. "Shall we continue in sin so grace can abound?"
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The Elect and Not Are Twins
- Thread starter Aaron
- Start date
Jewish objectors? Man do you ever force what you want into the text. Read v 24 real slow:
24 even us, whom he also called, not from the Jews only, but also from the Gentiles?
If the truth be known you're entire motivation for twisting Ro 9 to fit your view is derived from the very same objection, "Why doth He still find fault?" That's at the very core of your rejection of God's sovereign election. Are you Jewish?
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No I'm not Jewish. I'm a born from above child of God.
I'm just looking at the plain realities of the Text.
Seriously? It's obvious to me you're reading into the text what you want it to say.
I'm honestly not trying to impose anything into the text.
God will have Mercy upon whom He will...through the promised seed--the Lord Jesus Christ.
And to those fitted for destruction are those outside of Christ--who rejected God's Promised Seed.
Romans 9:7-8 (KJV) Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
Children of the promise--Christ is the promise--those who are God's Children through faith In Him.
Doesn’t Romans teach that Gentiles are grafted into the the root?
The root being the remnant of believing Israel?
Do you consider adoption then over heritage or heritage over adoption?
For if we are believers as Gentiles, then we are not also son’s of Abraham through Christ?
Romans 15:12 (KJV) And again, Esaias saith, There shall be a root of Jesse, and he that shall rise to reign over the Gentiles; in him shall the Gentiles trust.
The remnant of believing Israel are fellow branches, the root Is Christ.
I believe it says we are son's of Abraham because of faith (Romans 4). Not sure if that's splitting hairs or not.
Maybe I'm missing something, please help me understand what you are saying?
k. Let's see:
"through the promised seed--the Lord Jesus Christ". NOT in the text, you imposed it into the text.
Lol, which verse states that? Which verse specifically words it in this manner. Although what you're saying is true it's NOT what the text says. You imposed it into the text.
Nowhere in the text are the children of the promise defined that way. Again, you’re imposing into the text. In fact the text states “In Isaac shall thy seed be called.” No mention of Christ, but Isaac. I quoted Gal 4 in an earlier post:
28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are children of promise.
29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, so also it is now. Gal 4
Though you are correct in that all this has come about on account of Christ, you are incorrect when you assert that you do not impose into the text. You very much impose into the text. And I believe it's because you can't accept what this text is telling you. "Why doth He yet find fault?"
Romans 9:32-33 (KJV) Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;
As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
Romans 9:7-8 is stating that God has a specific elect seed that will bring about the Children of God--and it's Christ. And We are His Children by faith, not because of physical birth.
Paul was not using Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob to show individual election, but to show that it is Christ who brings the Promise. It no doubt assumed. He just spent the last 8 chapters talking about it.
Ah, ok, I'm seeing your angle now. But just want to remind you Ro 9 applies to "not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles". Christ is still yet a stumblingstone and rock of offence to Jews and Gentiles alike today. And still yet today God "hath mercy on whom he will, and whom he will he hardeneth". You can't cubby hole this away because it offends you by assigning it solely to the Jews of that day that killed Christ.
7 neither, because they are Abraham`s seed, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
8 That is, it is not the children of the flesh that are children of God; but the children of the promise are reckoned for a seed. Ro 9
Incredible. Faith is not mentioned, you've again imposed into the text, it's about Him who calleth (v 11). Christ is not mentioned, you've again imposed into the text. You gom it up so much that I don't really have the will to unravel it. Maybe later after I get some sleep.
Incredible. "Paul was not using...Jacob to show individual election"
11 for the children being not yet born, neither having done anything good or bad, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth,
12 it was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
13 Even as it is written, Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated. Ro 9
God's sovereign grace offends you so much that you refuse to recognize the plain meaning of the words.
8 That is, it is not the children of the flesh that are children of God; but the children of the promise are reckoned for a seed. Ro 9
Incredible. Faith is not mentioned, you've again imposed into the text, it's about Him who calleth (v 11). Christ is not mentioned, you've again imposed into the text. You gom it up so much that I don't really have the will to unravel it. Maybe later after I get some sleep.
Paul was not using Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob to show individual election, but to show that it is Christ who brings the Promise. It no doubt assumed. He just spent the last 8 chapters talking about it.
Incredible. "Paul was not using...Jacob to show individual election"
11 for the children being not yet born, neither having done anything good or bad, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth,
12 it was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
13 Even as it is written, Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated. Ro 9
God's sovereign grace offends you so much that you refuse to recognize the plain meaning of the words.
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I don't think you really know what God has the capacity to show someone, because I don't think that you genuinely know Him.
At all.
Am I reading that right?
Did you just refer to the Lord God Almighty as, " The guy who invented Kindness, Love and Compassion", who has pride and vanity that He would never let get in the way of something?
utilyan,
If you knew, right now, what it is that you are doing, and Who it is that you are treating so lightly, I think you'd be terrified.
In fact, I know you will be.
I think that what you really need, is a good old fashioned dose of what the Bible calls, "the fear of the Lord".
To me, you're a mocker, a ridiculer, a challenger and a man who sees God as he wants Him to be...not as He is.
You simply amaze me with your attitude towards God, your stabbing repartee towards other people who disagree with you, and I don't believe I've ever seen such audacity towards Him from a professing believer.
Ever.
So much so, that I am very afraid for you.
I'm sure you will find this a relief, but this is my last reply to you in this thread, and most probably, in any thread.
I wish you well, but I don't think that it will help you very much.
Apparently, you have a much greater problem with God than I initially thought.
...and it doesn't just end with His words.
"utilyan,
If you knew, right now, what it is that you are doing, and Who it is that you are treating so lightly, I think you'd be terrified.
"A terrorist god wants submission?
Well rumor has it Jehovah's Witness already turned you down .....
and if those pacifists and publishers have found that kind of nerve......
Then of course, Catholics have their reputation to consider.
"Am I reading that right?
Did you just refer to the Lord God Almighty as, " The guy who invented Kindness, Love and Compassion", who has pride and vanity that He would never let get in the way of something?"
God is Love. 1 John 4. Our priority is Love.
1 timothy 1
5But the goal of our instruction is love from a pure heart and a good conscience and a sincere faith.
You are the one ridiculing him to have the vanity of satan and being a simple terrorist with your threats on me.
"a man who sees God as he wants Him to be...not as He is."
1 John 4
8The one who does not love does not know God, for God is love.
You wouldn't know who God is if he was in front of your face.
I love God's Sovereignty. I love His Grace.
Well i'm thankful we can have a good discussion about it. May the Lord Give us a spirit of Wisdom and Revelation in the Knowledge of Him. Peace my brother!
K. But you still can't/won't accept His sovereign election of INDIVIDUALS, but you're definitely not alone, many, maybe even most, of His children can't/won't bear it.
Do you believe God's Truth is "Grasped," or do you believe it is "revealed" by Him?
Whew, deep question. I may come across as a mugwump here but I believe it's both. I believe a whole lot of His children are content to go only so far in the word, others are compelled to go further. It's not for everyone to study the deeper things of God, neither is our eternal destiny dependent upon the extent of our knowledge of the word.
10 The disciples say unto him, If the case of the man is so with his wife, it is not expedient to marry.
11 But he said unto them, Not all men can receive this saying, but they to whom it is given. Mt 19
The disciples were struggling to accept what Christ had just told them about divorce - it being justified only due to fornication [not adultery, but sex before marriage]. If they were unable to accept it were they any less His children?
IMO, you and many others are unable to receive the doctrines of God's sovereign grace because it offends you, but it doesn't make you any less a child of God.
I'm tracking you here. I find it powerful to pray Paul's prayers in Colossians 1, Philippians 1, Ephesians 1, and Ephesians 3. Not just for myself, but for God's people. Maybe you can start praying them for me? I am convinced that if we'll humbly pray these prayers, He will give His Children Bread, and not a stone. Maybe I'll see it like you do, maybe you'll see it like i do. Either way, God will give us grace to receive from His bountiful hand.
Gup20
Active Member
I'm not bashing God's Sovereignty... I"m explaining how His soverignty is much, much greater than ether Calvin or Arminius could have ever imagined.
Take this example: I offer my child a simple, binary choice (two options); do you want pancakes for breakfast or do you want waffles. My child doesn't have free will ... they can't choose steak and eggs... they can't choose candy. They have the choice, yet because I am completely sovereign over breakfast, I can offer more than one possibility without any damage to my sovereignty.
The Calvinist/Arminianist perspectives of sovereignty require such a weak God who could only bear one possible choice.
Deuteronomy 30:19
“I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. So choose life in order that you may live, you and your descendants,
“I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. So choose life in order that you may live, you and your descendants,
Not only does God not make this choice for us, but he commands us 3 times in this chapter to make this choice for ourselves... and He goes even further to say that it is not too difficult for us to make the choice, and the choice is not made in heaven by God.
Deu 30:11-15 NASB
11 "For this commandment which I command you today is not too difficult for you, nor is it out of reach. 12 "It is not in heaven, that you should say, 'Who will go up to heaven for us to get it for us and make us hear it, that we may observe it?' 13 "Nor is it beyond the sea, that you should say, 'Who will cross the sea for us to get it for us and make us hear it, that we may observe it?' 14 "But the word is very near you, in your mouth and in your heart, that you may observe it. 15 "See, I have set before you today life and prosperity, and death and adversity;
11 "For this commandment which I command you today is not too difficult for you, nor is it out of reach. 12 "It is not in heaven, that you should say, 'Who will go up to heaven for us to get it for us and make us hear it, that we may observe it?' 13 "Nor is it beyond the sea, that you should say, 'Who will cross the sea for us to get it for us and make us hear it, that we may observe it?' 14 "But the word is very near you, in your mouth and in your heart, that you may observe it. 15 "See, I have set before you today life and prosperity, and death and adversity;
The Calvinist argument is that Deutermonomy 30 is only for the Jews are references The Law of Moses. This is directly contradicted by Paul in Romans 10 when he quotes this very passage and says undeniably that this is in regards to the righteousness which comes by faith.
Rom 10:5-11 NASB
5 For Moses writes that the man who practices the righteousness which is based on law shall live by that righteousness. 6 But the righteousness based on faith speaks as follows: "DO NOT SAY IN YOUR HEART, 'WHO WILL ASCEND INTO HEAVEN?' (that is, to bring Christ down), 7 or 'WHO WILL DESCEND INTO THE ABYSS?' (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead)." 8 But what does it say? "THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, IN YOUR MOUTH AND IN YOUR HEART"--that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, 9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus [as] Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, "WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED."
5 For Moses writes that the man who practices the righteousness which is based on law shall live by that righteousness. 6 But the righteousness based on faith speaks as follows: "DO NOT SAY IN YOUR HEART, 'WHO WILL ASCEND INTO HEAVEN?' (that is, to bring Christ down), 7 or 'WHO WILL DESCEND INTO THE ABYSS?' (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead)." 8 But what does it say? "THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, IN YOUR MOUTH AND IN YOUR HEART"--that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, 9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus [as] Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, "WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED."
Complete free will is not Biblical. But God giving us a distinct binary choice - choose life or choose death - only shows God's soverignty to be greater and more powerful than we can imagine in that it can account for multiple scenarios and choices. And further when Deuteronomy 30:19 talks about the salvation through faith, it says he calls "heaven" and "earth" to "witness". This parallels the synergistic nature of salvation that Paul talks about in Romans 8:
Rom 8:16-17 NASB
16 The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God, 17 and if children, heirs also, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with [Him] so that we may also be glorified with [Him.]
16 The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God, 17 and if children, heirs also, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with [Him] so that we may also be glorified with [Him.]
Notice that "the spirit himself" (heaven from Deu 30) and our spirit (earth from Deu 30), testifies (witnesses from Deu 30) that we are children of God. Note what the salvation choice qualifies the believer for; to be children and fellow heirs. It qualifies us for human adoption into the family of Abraham.
Gal 3:6-9 NASB
6 Even so Abraham BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS. 7 Therefore, be sure that it is those who are of faith who are sons of Abraham. 8 The Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, [saying,] "ALL THE NATIONS WILL BE BLESSED IN YOU." 9 So then those who are of faith are blessed with Abraham, the believer.
26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's descendants, heirs according to promise.
6 Even so Abraham BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS. 7 Therefore, be sure that it is those who are of faith who are sons of Abraham. 8 The Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, [saying,] "ALL THE NATIONS WILL BE BLESSED IN YOU." 9 So then those who are of faith are blessed with Abraham, the believer.
26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's descendants, heirs according to promise.
Rockson
Active Member
You're quite right in that I am not completely trusting in His power...
So, from here on out, I'll trust the Lord to show you.
That doesn't mean that I won't reply to you, it just means that I'm going to sit back and let you beat me up as often as you like, without getting my hopes up that my replies will make a difference.
May He bless you in all things.
Well Dave that means you're acknowledging you're wasting your time here. If you feel that way doesn't mean you should be redeeming your time? For the record doesn't mean that I shouldn't be doing more of that myself if that's what I'm doing.