The plausibility of John 3:18

[JonC]

I believe that those who are condemned are condemned because they do not believe in Christ. That is the condemnation, and because of their disbelief they remain in their sins.

This is not plausible. Why was Adam then condemned to die? It wasn't because of his unbelief in Christ, it was because of his sin.

In this quote I say that I believe those who are condemned are condemned because they do not believe in Christ. I was referencing John 3:18:

John 3:18 18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

As David is one of our newer Calvinists to gather here, I am directing this question more to the Calvinistic side of the house.

In what ways is the belief that those who do not believe in Christ are already condemned because they have not believed in the name of Christ “not plausible”?

 

[Reformed]

In what ways is the belief that those who do not believe in Christ are already condemned because they have not believed in the name of Christ “not plausible”?

John 3:18 He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

How is not plausible? You are asking how a positive statement in scripture cannot mean what it means. Obviously, it means that those who have not believed [in Christ] are already condemned. The word for "judged" is written as a completed action. Looking at this in the eschaton, it is referring to those who will never believe, not those who are unbelieving at the present time. Why? Because they are referred to as "judged already".

And what is with the Hyper-Calvinist accusation? Nice way to start off a thread.

 

[Iconoclast]

John 3:18 He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

How is not plausible? You are asking how a positive statement in scripture cannot mean what it means. Obviously, it means that those who have not believed [in Christ] are already condemned. The word for "judged" is written as a completed action. Looking at this in the eschaton, it is referring to those who will never believe, not those who are unbelieving at the present time. Why? Because they are referred to as "judged already".

And what is with the Hyper-Calvinist accusation? Nice way to start off a thread.

Exactly Reformed...not exactly a welcome to the new poster.

 

[HankD]

This (John 3:18) cannot possibly be either a C or A passage because it predates these gentlemen by approximately 1500 years.

 

[JonC]

This (John 3:18) cannot possibly be either a C or A passage because it predates these gentlemen by approximately 1500 years.

To be fair, the discussion was about the atonement. It was not anout Adam but whether or not the verse is true today.

 

[JonC]

John 3:18 He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

How is not plausible? You are asking how a positive statement in scripture cannot mean what it means. Obviously, it means that those who have not believed [in Christ] are already condemned. The word for "judged" is written as a completed action. Looking at this in the eschaton, it is referring to those who will never believe, not those who are unbelieving at the present time. Why? Because they are referred to as "judged already".

And what is with the Hyper-Calvinist accusation? Nice way to start off a thread.

I do not understand the competing idea that the verse does not mean the lost are already condemned for their disbelief.

My interpretation is that this is referring to people who do not believe, that they are in a state of condemnation because they do not believe in Christ. To me this focuses not on the law but on Christ (their condemnation is because they do not believe in the name of God's only begotten Son).


I do believe this refers to all who are in a state of disbelief (not only the "non-elect").

But @davidtaylorjr rejected the idea that the lost are condemned because they do not believe as "not plausible". I do not understand the competing interpretation.

I did not mean "hyper" as an insult, but removed it nonetheless. I have been called "hyper" because I believe in "double predestination". I just considered it a measurement on a spectrum. Thanks for pointing out that it is considered insulting. I'm not sure what the proper designation would be.

 

[Reformed1689]

But @davidtaylorjr rejected the idea that the lost are condemned because they do not believe as "not plausible". I do not understand the competing interpretation.

Can you please provide the post for context of where I said this?

 

[Reformed1689]

But @davidtaylorjr rejected the idea that the lost are condemned because they do not believe as "not plausible". I do not understand the competing interpretation.

Ok I found it:

Atonement

But let's be honest. This was specifically about whether our sin condemns us, specifically Adam. I guess you now take posts out of context and not just Scripture.

What I said, is unbelief in Christ is not the sole source of condemnation or reason for the penalty. Adam was condemned the moment he sinned. It was not because of an unbelief in Christ, that promise had not been made yet so he could not have had unbelief in a promise that was not yet made.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Can you please provide the post for context of where I said this?

John 3:18 states those don’t believe in the Christ are condemned already. Even before their rejection of Him, they were already in their condemned state.

 

[Reformed1689]

John 3:18 states those don’t believe in the Christ are condemned already. Even before their rejection of Him, they were already in their condemned state.

Exactly which is why I posted The plausibility of John 3:18

My comments were taken horribly out of context by @JonC in a lame attempt to discredit my position by making it appear I was going against Scripture.

 

[JonC]

Can you please provide the post for context of where I said this?

For future reference, just hit the arrow up and it will take you to the quote (I've found this a helpful tool as it will work across threads).

 

[Reformed1689]

For future reference, just hit the arrow up and it will take you to the quote (I've found this a helpful tool as it will work across threads).

Except you did not quote a thread....You just typed it in...

 

[JonC]

Exactly which is why I posted The plausibility of John 3:18

My comments were taken horribly out of context by @JonC in a lame attempt to discredit my position by making it appear I was going against Scripture.

No, it was not taken out of context. I stated that I believed that the lost were condemned because they did not believe in Christ. You said that this was not plausible and reached back to Adam's condemnation.

I had stated that I believe this condemnation is the Judgment (the final judgment). I do not believe that Adam will be among the condemned.

What I am asking, or opening this up to, is your explanation or those who hold your view.

My view differs because I do not see this as speaking of a physical death but of the judgment that follows (man is appointed to die once, and then the Judgment).

Please don't assume that I am trying to discredit your position when I ask for clarification stating that I do not understand your interpretation of the passage. This is not an "echo chamber", people believe differently. @Reformed interprets the passage to refer to all who will not believe (not those who do not believe but will....i.e., the elect). I don't. His comment was helpful for me to understand his position. You do not know my intent (I was asking for the interpretation), so be very careful when you start believing otherwise. I am interested in how you interpret the passage.

 

[JonC]

Except you did not quote a thread....You just typed it in...

No. It was a quote (a direct quote). I did not type it in.

I believe that those who are condemned are condemned because they do not believe in Christ. That is the condemnation, and because of their disbelief they remain in their sins.

This is not plausible. Why was Adam then condemned to die? It wasn't because of his unbelief in Christ, it was because of his sin.

It is post #170. Nothing added, nothing taken away.

If the verse does not mean those who are condemned are condemned because they do not believe in the name of Christ, then what does it mean? If condemnation is not based on not believing in Christ, then what is its basis? I am asking for your interpretation of the verse.

 

[Reformed1689]

No, it was not taken out of context.

I have already shown beyond doubt that it was.

You do not know my intent (I was asking for the interpretation), so be very careful when you start believing otherwise. I am interested in how you interpret the passage.

I would believe that if you weren't going and deleting posts without cause when it exposes you. I have submitted several ethical complaints about this.

As far as the passage, yes, they are ULTIMATELY condemned because of unbelief. But you have to factor in Adam. What was he condemned for? His sin. It wasn't an unbelief in the work of Christ. You can't just cherry-pick a verse to come up with a doctrinal position. People are condemned because of their sin. They seal that condemnation with their unbelief.

 

[SovereignGrace]

No, it was not taken out of context. I stated that I believed that the lost were condemned because they did not believe in Christ. You said that this was not plausible and reached back to Adam's condemnation.

I had stated that I believe this condemnation is the Judgment (the final judgment). I do not believe that Adam will be among the condemned.

What I am asking, or opening this up to, is your explanation or those who hold your view.

My view differs because I do not see this as speaking of a physical death but of the judgment that follows (man is appointed to die once, and then the Judgment).

Please don't assume that I am trying to discredit your position when I ask for clarification stating that I do not understand your interpretation of the passage. This is not an "echo chamber", people believe differently. @Reformed interprets the passage to refer to all who will not believe (not those who do not believe but will....i.e., the elect). I don't. His comment was helpful for me to understand his position. You do not know my intent (I was asking for the interpretation), so be very careful when you start believing otherwise. I am interested in how you interpret the passage.

What of those who die never knowing the Christ existed?

 

[JonC]

What of those who die never knowing the Christ existed?

I believe that the Object of salvation has always been and will always be Christ. Paul explains this with Abraham, who was counted as righteousness by faith. Abraham's faith was in the Promise. I believe this Promise is Christ who was foretold to Adam in the Garden.

I do not believe there has been any way to salvation except Christ, even in the Old Testament. If you are asking about "guilt", I believe that the invisible things from the creation of the world evidence God, even the Godhead. Those who have not heard have heard enough to have rejected Christ.

 

[Reformed]

My interpretation is that this is referring to people who do not believe, that they are in a state of condemnation because they do not believe in Christ.

Well, is that not what the verse says, that "he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God" (emphasis mine).

Leave the Elect talk out of this for a moment. The grammatical construction of this passage makes it a now-and-not-yet situation. It is very similar to when Paul writes that we are glorified in Romans 8:30. Our glorification at this present time is positional. We have not been completely glorified. We do not yet have heavenly bodies. We are not yet in the eternal state and present with Christ. However, those things are so certain for the child of God that Paul wrote as though they were already a present reality. In the same way, those who have not believed have been judged (condemned in the KJV) already. Judgment and condemnation are reserved for those who die in their sins (unbelief). Jesus is speaking about those who will die in their sins. The grammatical construction of the passage supports this.

 

[SovereignGrace]

I believe that the Object of salvation has always been and will always be Christ. Paul explains this with Abraham, who was counted as righteousness by faith. Abraham's faith was in the Promise. I believe this Promise is Christ who was foretold to Adam in the Garden.

I do not believe there has been any way to salvation except Christ, even in the Old Testament. If you are asking about "guilt", I believe that the invisible things from the creation of the world evidence God, even the Godhead. Those who have not heard have heard enough to have rejected Christ.

But natural revelation does not tell them the gospel, how God came as a man, lived a sinless, perfect life. Was crucified, buried and rose again three days later.

All this shows them is God as Creator, but not Saviour.

 

[JonC]

I have already shown beyond doubt that it was.



I would believe that if you weren't going and deleting posts without cause when it exposes you. I have submitted several ethical complaints about this.

As far as the passage, yes, they are ULTIMATELY condemned because of unbelief. But you have to factor in Adam. What was he condemned for? His sin. It wasn't an unbelief in the work of Christ. You can't just cherry-pick a verse to come up with a doctrinal position. People are condemned because of their sin. They seal that condemnation with their unbelief.

John 3:9-21 (NASB)
9 Nicodemus said to Him, "How can these things be?"
10 Jesus answered and said to him, "Are you the teacher of Israel and do not understand these things?
11 "Truly, truly, I say to you, we speak of what we know and testify of what we have seen, and you do not accept our testimony.
12 "If I told you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things?
13 "No one has ascended into heaven, but He who descended from heaven: the Son of Man.
14 "As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up;
15 so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life.
16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.
17 "For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him.
18 "He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
19 "This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil.
20 "For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed.
21 "But he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God."