Featured The plausibility of John 3:18

I agree with that - that it is a now and not yet situation. But I believe at the same time that it is referencing all of man (in the same way). This is why the idea of assurance is so difficult. One can only look at what they can see (the present) but the truth extends much further.

With Nicodemus, I believe that Jesus was making a legitimate point about having to be "born again" (or, for those who prefer, "born from above). I do not think that Jesus was saying those who are already condemned are toast, and those who will believe are good to go. Instead the focus was on the fact that Jesus did not come to judge the world but that through Him the world might be saved.

That does not, however, allow for an interpretation that those who do not believe are condemned for anything other than their refusal to believe. That is the larger issue because I understand your point, but I do not exactly understand @davidtaylorjr rejection of the idea. Of course we are talking about an ultimate state of condemnation (I can see the passage no other way).

That said, we also have to remember that when we speak of God's wrath and God's Judgment in a soteriological context, I believe it has to be "on that day" or the day of Judgment.

 

My point is that I do not understand how the idea that those who do not believe are condemned because they do not believe. Insofar as Adam, I believe that Adam had faith in the Promise. So he would be among those who believe.

I believe that the way to salvation has always been Christ (even in the Old Testament). I believe that those who are condemned in the Old Testament are so because they reject God (they reject the Godhead evidenced to them). Is this enough to save them? I don't know - that is not a question that concerns me because it is enough to convict them (I hold to election to include double predestination).

So insofar as Adam, if Adam is saved it is because he believes in Christ (in the Promise). If Adam did not believe, then Adam is condemned.

 

I've answered this (insofar as my view goes).

I believe that through Adam's transgression sin entered the world, and through sin death. The original reason for that condemnation is a lack of faith (unbelief). I do not believe that "belief" is simple cognitive belief. When Scripture speaks of believing in the name of Christ it is much more than knowing about Christ and believing that He is real or even that He can save us. Adam's disobedience evidenced a disbelief (a reliance on something or someone other than God). That is why we, I believe, see repentance and belief always as elements of faith.

 

Old ground. We've already covered that I do not believe God's wrath is physical death but the condemnation at Judgment.

 

Take that up with John (not JonC) .

I actually agree that mankind is born condemned in the sense that we are all "under the curse". But I see God's wrath as the final Judgment, not physical death.

 

It does all go back to sin, but not sin as a transgression. It goes back to sin as a power. Why did Adam transgress God's command? Was Adam somehow created with a "fatal flaw"? No. Adam allowed temptation to over come him and sin was conceived of his lusts (the lust of the flesh).

We disagree here as I know you view sin as a moral transgression (we've already covered this....let's not start all over when we get to a new thread). But I don't I see sin as something much larger and much more pervasive.

 

Verse please.

 

Yes. Sin has consequences....even for believers. But this is not the Judgment.

 

It depends on what you view as "sin". You see it as a moral transgression. I've spoken of "sin" as something larger. The penalty of sin is death (a physical death). Even believers will face this penalty (or consequence...."wages" of sin). But this is sin as a "power" - ALL experience this penalty, even my child who died in infancy. But he was innocent - he will not face Judgment for his sinful acts because he never lived to commit a sinful act. Yet he is not here today because he died as a result of sin.