The plausibility of John 3:18

[JonC]

@SovereignGrace , to answer your question, I do not believe it is "either/ or". That is why I bump heads (I do not believe the atonement can be reduced to Penal Substitution Theory or any other theory but instead believe that the atonement exceeds addressing only divine wrath because "sin" itself is more than a moral transgression or even moral issue). It's easy in one way because of what we affirm. It's difficult because of what you would deny.

 

[SovereignGrace]

You have not addressed mine. Do you believe that the lost have been judged already because they do not believe in Christ, that the judgment is that the Light has come into the world and men loved the darkness rather than the Light because their deeds were evil?

I said this in my response to your question...”So yes, the non-elect have been judged already.”

 

[SovereignGrace]

@SovereignGrace , to answer your question, I do not believe it is "either/ or". That is why I bump heads (I do not believe the atonement can be reduced to Penal Substitution Theory or any other theory but instead believe that the atonement exceeds addressing only divine wrath because "sin" itself is more than a moral transgression or even moral issue). It's easy in one way because of what we affirm. It's difficult because of what you would deny.

So, God destroying all mankind minus 8 ppl, drowning Pharaoh and his army in the Red Sea, swallowing up Abiram, Dothan, and Korah, having Herod eaten by worms is not God’s wrath being meted out?

 

[JonC]

I said this in my response to your question...”So yes, the non-elect have been judged already.”

They have been judged already for what?

 

[JonC]

So, God destroying all mankind minus 8 ppl, drowning Pharaoh and his army in the Red Sea, swallowing up Abiram, Dothan, and Korah, having Herod eaten by worms is not God’s wrath being meted out?

It is a judgment (as I believe many of the things that have happened in the U.S. and Europe is "a" judgment). But no, I do not believe that this is what Scripture is referring to when it speaks of God's wrath "on that day". I believe it is talking about a final judgment.

 

[SovereignGrace]

They have been judged already for what?

When God chose the elect from the rest of fallen humanity, both their destinations were set. The reason why the elect do not die the second death(hell) is He bore their sins and atoned for them. They have already been judged to eternal death.

 

[SovereignGrace]

It is a judgment (as I believe many of the things that have happened in the U.S. and Europe is "a" judgment). But no, I do not believe that this is what Scripture is referring to when it speaks of God's wrath "on that day". I believe it is talking about a final judgment.

God’s wrath has been poured out before, now, and will finally be poured out on the last day.

 

[JonC]

God’s wrath has been poured out before, now, and will finally be poured out on the last day.

So you do not see a difference?

 

[MB]

I said this in my response to your question...”So yes, the non-elect have been judged already.”

Then what would be the purpose of Judgement day?
MB

 

[JonC]

When God chose the elect from the rest of fallen humanity, both their destinations were set. The reason why the elect do not die the second death(hell) is He bore their sins and atoned for them. They have already been judged to eternal death.

I hold to election and a "double predestination". That said, have you found it interesting that Scripture never speaks of the "elect" as unbelieving? It is always the elect being chosen out of fallen man who are already condemned and God giving them a new heart and a new spirit.

 

[SovereignGrace]

So you do not see a difference?

Regardless, His wrath is being poured out on the godless ppl.

 

[SovereignGrace]

I hold to election and a "double predestination". That said, have you found it interesting that Scripture never speaks of the "elect" as unbelieving? It is always the elect being chosen out of fallen man who are already condemned and God giving them a new heart and a new spirit.

Ephesians 2:3 refers to the elect as children of wrath.

ETA: it says they were by nature children of wrath. They had the same fallen nature, but were never a vessel of wrath.

 

[Reformed1689]

They have been judged already for what?

Can I ask a question? This is going to sound snarky, rude, childish but I don't mean it that way, I am genuinely concerned.

Do you even know what you believe?

 

[SovereignGrace]

Can I ask a question? This is going to sound snarky, rude, childish but I don't mean it that way, I am genuinely concerned.

Do you even know what you believe?

Here’s why I believe what I do in that the non-elect are condemned already. When Adam fell, we were in Adam, every blasted one of us. So, when he fell, we too fell, being in Adam.

We didn’t have to do one thing to earn this condemnation. If not for the Christ, all of us would be in hell. However, God sent His Son to die for us. He bore our sins upon Himself, took the wrath of God(that was rightly ours) for us. He paid the debt of those whose sins He bore and atoned for. God is fully satisfied with that payment, His wrath has been appeased, satiated, placated for those whom the Christ died and rose for. That’s why the elect are not children of wrath in the exact manner the non-elect are. They are children of wrath by nature, in that they had a fallen nature. But they were never vessels of wrath.

The non-elect will have the wrath of God poured upon them here and on the day of judgment because the Christ never bore their sins for them.

 

[The Biblicist]

In this quote I say that I believe those who are condemned are condemned because they do not believe in Christ.

17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Lets take a step back for a moment and consider verse 18 in its immediate context. Notice that in verse 17 that God did not send his son into the world to condemn the world but to that the world might be saved. Hence, that necessarily infers the world was already in a condemned state prior to God sending his Son into the world and in need of salvation not condemnation.

Second, notice the shift of plural and singular subjects between verses 17 and 18 and then again from verse 18 to verse 19 and then again in verse 21. In verse 17 the subject is "the world" whereas in verse 18 it is individualized "he" while in verse 19 it is changed again to generic "men" and then back again to the singular in verses 20-21.

Now, he shifts between God's design for sending his son into the world in verse 17 to the individualized response to the Son's presence among men in verse 18. Thus, the shift from "the world" in verse 17 to "he....him" in verse 18. This world is already condemned before the Son comes into the world but verse 18 deals with the individual response of Christ now present in the world and that is why Jesus uses PRESENT TENSE participles "beleiveth.....beleiveth" to describe the present response to Christ among men with regard to God's divine intent. He that is believing is no longer under condemnation, but he that is not believing remains under that condemnation. So, he is not saying that believing or not believing determines the condemned state as something other than that had already determined that before the Son came into the world. What is that?

That is the subject of verse 19 where again he shifts subjects from the singular "he....him" to the plural "men...their." Here he defines the original cause for condemnation that preceded the Christ coming into the world but was a condition existed when Christ came into the world. Unbelief is rooted in something far more sinister and that is "men" in general "loved" (previous to Christ's coming) darkness and "hateth" light. This is the CAUSE for their unbelief in him when he came into the world, this was their condition of condemnation that prevented them from receiving him in belief. Notice the completed action verbs "loved....were evil" which are evidence for their already condemned condition prior to the light coming into the world.

19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

It is this previous condition that manifests their "already condemned" condition and explains why they did not receive Christ when he came into the world. Now, Jesus changes again the subject from a plural to the singular "every one...his" in verses 20-21 where he provides explanation for why their present state of unbelief as "For" is explanatory -

20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.

Additionally to their LOVE and HATE heart condition their PRESENT actions "DOETH EVIL" manifests their "already condemned condition" and it is this SIN CONDITION (state of the heart, kind of actions that issue from the heart) that is the cause for their present response in unbelief to Christ. Hence, Jesus is not saying that unbelief is the singular and only cause for their condemnation but that it is merely one more manifestation of a deeper reason for that condemnation.

21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

Hence, the condition of their heart (hateth, loveth) is responsible for their inability to come to Christ in faith and is the cause for doing evil, thus THIS IS the underlying cause they are "condemned already." In direct, contrast "he that doeth" and "cometh to the light" is not due to him but a change of their basic love and hate nature which prohibits them from coming and such a change is the manifestation "they are wrought in God" or the "new birth" that Jesus introduced to Nicodemus at the beginning of this discussion.

Thus, Jesus has concluded his discussion with proof why the new birth is necessary as the root of unbelief is found in an evil nature that loves darkness and hates light and that is why men do not come to the light.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Then what would be the purpose of Judgement day?
MB

To be rendered their sentence. After someone is found guilty, they come back on a later date to be sentenced for their crimes.

 

[JonC]

Can I ask a question? This is going to sound snarky, rude, childish but I don't mean it that way, I am genuinely concerned.

Do you even know what you believe?

Sure - you can always ask a question. We are not communists, after all....at least not yet.

Yes. I know exactly what I believe.

I think that the reason you find it difficult to understand (and I don't mean this snarky as well) is that you are thinking from one tradition. The reason I believe this is that when I held you position I also rejected those who held what I now affirm. Having been a student of Church history this happened quite often (I could not imagine how other people viewed the atonement apart from the tradition through which I was brought up). I suppose we just think a certain way and it is difficult to "break those bonds".

The problem is that we sometimes become so indoctrinated into one way of thinking that we are blind to other positions. What happens is that people are literally unable to comprehend what the other person is saying because they move the other person's comments and explanations into their own presupposed theological framework.

You did this when you reached back to Adam's transgression ignoring that I had granted I hold a different view of "sin". But yes, I am firm on what I believe and on what I reject.

 

[JonC]

To be rendered their sentence. After someone is found guilty, they come back on a later date to be sentenced for their crimes.

So you believe it is like a secular court that operates under a western sense of justice?

 

[SovereignGrace]

So you believe it is like a secular court that operates under a western sense of justice?

Nope, not even close.

When the non-elect die, their spirit goes to hades. Then when the day of judgment takes place, their body is resurrected and their spirit reunites with the body. They stand before the Christ, are sentenced and cast into hell, the lake of fire, the second death.

 

[37818]

Do you apply John 3:17 to the "elect prior to their regeneration" or only to those who will never believe?

As I currently understand the text, to both the elect prior to regeneration and the none elect.