37818
Well-Known Member
I would think so, but Matthew 7:21-23 can be understood maybe not (the resurrected lost souls from one of three three places, Revelation 20:13).
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The plausibility of John 3:18
- Thread starter JonC
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Not much is mentioned on hades. Not bashing the KJV here, but they did a lot to confuse ppl with all the words that were translated hell. Sheol, Gehenna, Tartarus, hades, all got translated hell. That’s a whole bunch of hells in the Bible.
I believe so as well. I wondered as there are a couple of ways of viewing the text.
I tend to look at salvation being men saved from this state condemnation (elected from fallen man).
What is that condemnation? Is it a condemnation due to violations of God's moral law or is it a condemnation because they did not believe in the name of Christ?
It is true today.
Granted those living at the coming of Christ are condemned by their refusal to believe in him (present tense participles) but that is not the basis of condemnation prior to Christ coming into the world as they are already condemned prior to him coming and it is not unbelief in Christ that condemned them but Adam's sin:
And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification. - Rom. 5:16
This is why the world was "condemned already" prior to Christ coming into the world and this is why when Christ came into the world men who continue in unbelief continue in condemnation whereas those who believe in him are justified - "but the free gift is of many offences unto justification."
Jesus is not saying unbelief is the root cause or the only cause for condemnation but merely just another cause for condemnation. The abiding cause for present unbelief is the heart that hates light, loves darkness and this is responsible for doing evil AND refusing to come to the light. However, the original root cause for the heart problem is "the judgement was by one to condemnation"
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37818
Well-Known Member
Yes. One of by studies in 1968 was that very issue. So have long known the term hell my KJV in Revelation 20:13 refers to Hades.
I am not so sure. I cannot see how a person can act in a state of belief and that action be sin. I also do not necessarily accept the now and then type of reasoning. The reason is that I believe that before the foundation of the world (before I was even born) I was in God's eyes a believer. I also believe that Christ is the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world, even before the Cross.
I was born in 1968. Given the blessedness of that year the study must have been a good one.
37818
Well-Known Member
No one is guilty for Adam's sin (Ezekiel 18:20).
Reformed1689
Well-Known Member
Convenient on your view of sin.... I still don't see any scriptural proof for it.
I'm not sure what point you're trying to make with this verse. Are you suggesting that unbelief is the only thing that condemns? Or that Christ died only because of our unbelief?
I'm not trying to put words in your mouth; I'm asking because I want to know.
Jesus uses present participles and singular pronouns in verse 18. He is referring to the present reaction to his presence in the world according to the design for his coming (vv. 16-17). They were "already condemned" prior to his arrival. They are condemned for their unbelief but the cause of their unbelief is rooted in something deeper and that is the condition of their heart (v. 19). It is that heart condition that does not permit them to come to the light (v. 20). Hence, the underlying cause for their condemnation is not unbelief, although that is the manifest cause that condemns them, but the root cause is found in their fallen nature which only new birth can change (v. 21). They were "condemned already" prior to Christ's coming and prior to their present tense response to him in unbelief.
It is not "reasoning" it is the Greek grammar. Note that verse 16-17 provide the design for Chrsit coming into the world as condemnation existed prior to his arrival. Note the use of present tense participles in verse 18 in response to his arrival versus the aorist tense verbs - completed action verbs in verse 19 descriptive of the condition of their heart which is the underlying cause for thier unbelief. This underlying cause for unbelief can only be altered by new birth (v. 20). However, this underlying cause prexisted his coming and preexisted the present response whether in belief or unbelief. Paul claims the original cause for this state of condemnation is found in Adam's sin (Rom. 5:16) not in any future response to Christ in unbelief or belief. Unbelief is only the manifest cause of their condition which speaks to a deeper underlying cause (sinful nature) which has its cause in condemnation that originated with one man's disobedience (Rom. 5:16).
Let's not confuse purpose with reality. We were "children of wrath even as others" with regard to reality but only the elect before the foundation of the world with regard to purpose.
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I actually did not expect you would, although Scripture is replete with proof.
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I believe that all judgment has been given to the Son. At the same time the passage reads Christ judges no one. I interpret this to be a final judgment centered on Christ.
The condemned are in their sins, as were we. They are now condemned for disbelief because if they would believe they would be saved.
I an suggesting that those who are condemed are so because they do not believe.
I believe that all judgment has been given to the Son. At the same time the passage reads Christ judges no one. I interpret this to be a final judgment centered on Christ.
The condemned are in their sins, as were we. They are now condemned for disbelief because if they would believe they would be saved.
Both. How then will they call on Him in whom they have not believed? How will they believe in Him whom they have not heard? If they have never heard of the Christ, this is still not an excuse. They are condemned for being unconverted sinners whether they’ve heard of the Christ or not.
You are confusing the relationship between fallen men with the unfallen condition and position of Adam with regard to his posterity. No human being acts as a represenative for others after the fall because we are all equally fallen. However, that is not the case with Adam prior to the fall. He acted as the representive of the whole human race and this is clearly spelled out in Romans 5:12-19 and is undeniable because Paul repeats over and over again "by one man's disobedience many.....be dead, be condemned...made sinners." You cannot apply that repetitive phrase to Ezekiel 18 can you? Now be honest! Can you apply that phrase to Ezekiel 18????
Misquoting a verse does not a defense make.
And how can they believe in Him whom they’ve never heard?
Jesus is not saying that unbelief is the root cause as he plainly contradicts that idea in verses 18-19. Unbelief is only the manifest cause for condemnation. The immediate underlying cause is the condition of the fallen man's heart - his love and hate which is the underlying cause for unbelief as that condition will not allow man to come to the light. However, the root cause of condemnation is neither unbelief or the human heart but "for the judgment was by one to condemnation....Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation;" (Rom. 5:16) not by "unbelief" but by "one man's disobedience.
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