Featured Does God Love the Seed of the Serpent?

You stumble at understanding that certainly ALL are ungodly (all have sinned), so in Christ’s death, it is true he did die for the ungodly. However, the declaration in Romans shows the death and resurrection were specific to benefit and be applied to ONLY those of the ungodly God claims as His, and empowers to believe.

 

Off topic non-germane comment. Did anyone say Romans 5:1-11 was speaking of all mankind? Nope. Deflection on display.

 

Sir, to say I did not address this whole long and repetitive discourse before is deflection.

1) Romans 5:8 does not say the lost have no spiritual ability to respond to the milk of the gospel. So your claim was false.

2) John 1 does not say the ungodly were "empowered by irresistible grace" by God to believe. So your claim was false.

3) Christ died for all mankind, including the "us." So your claim was false.

4) Your claim is correct, only the redeemed are reconciled. This is not in dispute.

5) We are redeemed and reconciled when God transfers us into Christ during our lifetime based on crediting our faith in Christ as righteousness. We were not reconciled when Christ died two thousand years ago. So your claim is false.

6) Your view that God loved all of mankind as demonstrated by giving His life as a ransom for all is correct.

7) To repeat, we are reconciled when God puts believers into Christ spiritually.

8) It is finished meant Christ had sacrificed Himself as the Lamb of God, becoming the propitiation or means of salvation for the whole world of fallen mankind.

9) Our adoption as sons is future, at Christ's second coming, and has been predestined for those put into Christ.

 

YOU were the one bringing up Romans 5 in post 76 and more to the point in post 78 were you stated,

“2) Romans 5:8 says God demonstrated His love for those He died for. 1 Timothy 2: 6 says Christ gave Himself as a ransom for all. Therefore, Christ died for all mankind demonstrating His love for all mankind.” (Van - post 78)​

Both Icon and I showed your view as not following Scripture. He by citing the longer passage, and I by dissecting a shorter section.

I don’t recall Icon or me presenting 1 Timothy 2.
So look here:

1First of all, then, I urge that entreaties and prayers, petitions and thanksgivings be made on behalf of all men, 2for kings and all who are in authority, so that we may lead a tranquil and quiet life in all godliness and dignity. 3This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 5For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, 6who gave Himself as a ransom for all, the testimony given at the proper time. 7For this I was appointed a preacher and an apostle (I am telling the truth, I am not lying) as a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and truth.. ​

The passage is encouraging prayer of all men of any rank or station, particularly the leaders (kings).
The passage reviews the mediation authority of Christ, and the mission of the first advent.

What is NOT stated is that the desire for all to be saved results in the offer for all to be saved.

As pointed out multiple times, the seed is sown on four grounds, however, only one ground is prepared to receive the seed. None of the other three grounds does the seed thrive to harvest. None of the four has any say in the preparation nor in the amount scattered. And, none of the ground has any ability to determine how that seed matures, at what rate, the weed population, the bird migration, the depth of the soil or even nutrient level.

Also, what is NOT said is that the ransom for all is more than that by other passages referring specifically and limited to the Blood. The death and resurrection by the scripture statements are specific to those appointed to believe. The blood was for all.

One should not select a verse nor even a passage in isolation and make doctrine that is refuted by other passages.

No doctrine is supported by a single passage.

It is like the high school English teacher who demands three proofs with three supporting proofs for each proof to have a well formed fact in which to support a writing topic.

 

Talk about repetition in another thread.

Your own Scripture references deny you the support you desire.

Show by posting both passages you cite and bold what you claim supports your view.

You can’t because you deflect and deny the truth presented in those passages.

For example, John 1:

9There was the true Light which, coming into the world, enlightens every man.10He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him. 11He came to His own, and those who were His own did not receive Him. 12But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name, 13who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.​

Your own passage citation refutes you.

If you do not heed the Scriptures, what statement can mere humans use to convince.

It is your turn.

Post Romans 5 and John 1 and prove the lost have the ability of there own determination (will).

Show by posting Romans 5 and John 1 that the heathen innately can understand and receive the milk, much less respond to the milk of Scripture appropriately. People who are lactose intolerance have no ability outside of taking lactose pills of receiving the milk. They turn away from such milk, just as John 1 states, “He came to His own and they didn’t receive Him.”

You so want to refute items such as “irresistible grace,” yet you have provided nothing but deflection by assuming the Scriptures support. Yet when shown there is no support you bluster about others using false claims.

Paul defending the missionary work before the council of Jerusalem stated:

11“But we believe that we are saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, in the same way as they also are.”​

That is an example of irresistible grace in action. For does notbthe Scripture state, “no one seeks Him” and in another “they have all turned to their wicked ways” ?

Certainly, if one does not seek, the assuredly the irresistible grace of God must be at work that they are “saved by the grace of God.”

Even human logic disapproves your claim(s) on this matter.

 

1) I did not claim Romans 5:8 said Christ died for all mankind. That was your strawman construct

2) Both Icon and your claims were shown be false.

3) No one said 1Timothy 2:6 says God provides the gospel offer to every individual person. Yet another strawman deflection..

4) Next we get the "other unreferenced passages" conflict with the Christ laid down His life as a ransom for all. That claim is false.

5) Your view has no support anywhere in scripture. None of the verses cited actually support the mistaken doctrine you advocate. None, zip, nada.

6) No verse, not Romans 5:8 nor 1 John support your mistaken view.

7) Scripture says several times we are saved by grace. But it never says we are saved by irresistible grace. That addition is false.

8) Scripture says no one seeks after God, but it does not say no one seeks after God at any time. That addition is false, see Matthew 23:13.

Once again your views have been demonstrated mistaken. No verse supports your view. You simply refer to saved by grace and then claim it means saved by irresistible grace. Twaddle.

 

Merely making a claim is not proof a statement is false.

For example, you reference Matthew 23:13. You claim what that verse does not.

Your claim of those entering are unsaved seeking God. The verse doesn’t even come close to supporting that thinking, yet you persist as if your repetition is proof.

Perhaps you could bolster your view by demonstrations from the balance of Scripture, but you cannot for in EVERY attempt on multiple threads engaging multiple people has shown your view as false.

Your continual false claim about irresistible grace has been shown false by lack of true Scripture support.

At least there are verses that show the believers were prepared for the purpose of God (2 Corinthians 5:5), by the exercise of His will (James 1:18), which directly caused salvation of specific ones (1 Peter 1:3)

Examples are given in the conversions of Paul, the jailor, the eunuch, and others in the NT. Moses, Abraham, Noah, Seth, Isaiah and others of the OT.

Colossians deals a death sentence to your thinking’

8See to it that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deception, according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary principles of the world, rather than according to Christ. 9For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form, 10and in Him you have been made complete, and He is the head over all rule and authority; 11and in Him you were also circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, in the removal of the body of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ; 12having been buried with Him in baptism, in which you were also raised up with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead. 13When you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions, 14having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross. 15When He had disarmed the rulers and authorities, He made a public display of them, having triumphed over them through Him.​

If you truly take the Scriptures as factual, then the principle of a special, unwarranted, unmerited, and complete work of grace is accomplished, without which, such purpose directed and commanded by the Father salvation not a single human would be redeemed.

That is why it is called irresistible grace. It is specifically preparing the believer, it is specifically the result of His will, and directed to Specific ones to the adoption.

 

I agree with you on the above I put in bold. However I would like to ask; Does God have a purpose for doing that relative to all mankind?

Consider:

And after there had been much debate, Peter rose and said to them, "Brethren, you know that in the early days God made choice among you, that by my mouth the Gentiles should hear the word of the gospel and believe. And God who knows the heart bore witness to them, giving them the Holy Spirit just as he did to us; and he made no distinction between us and them, but cleansed their hearts by faith. Acts 15:7-9 After they finished speaking, James replied, "Brethren, listen to me. Simeon has related how God first visited the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name. Acts 15:13,14

Are those the same as being spoken of in Romans? For what purpose? Continue.

After this I will return, and I will rebuild the dwelling of David, which has fallen; I will rebuild its ruins, and I will set it up, that the rest of men may seek the Lord, and all the Gentiles who are called by my name, says the Lord, who has made these things known from of old.' Acts 15:16-18

After this. After, the feast of firstfruit, firstfruit of the Spirit see Romans 8:23, I will return. Feast of trumpets.

With that thought in mind, read Eph 1:1-10
Who are the, "us," in verse 9? Can the, "rest of men," be found in verse 10?

 

Yet another log, repetitive post devoid of content.

Christ died for all mankind, 1 John 2:2 (I know you guys claim the whole world does not refer to all mankind, but that is just another bogus assertion).
God demonstrated His love for those He died for. Romans 5:8
Therefore God loves all mankind.
Case closed.
See also 1 Timothy 2:4-6 God also shows His love for all by desiring all to be saved.
Case hammered closed.

 

Here the implication is those who disagree do not delight in the truth. Yet another against the man logical fallacy indicating the argument lacks validity.

 

Some who are hyper contend this point, I do not. But you bringing it up, when the point argued is about irresistible grace, is showing you using distraction.

Are you ready to admit that there. Is a special unmerited and unwarranted favor God extends to bring one He has claimed as His child to adoption? That really is all that irresistible grace (the term given) means.

God has always loved His whole creation, for God is Love. However, there is that general love expressed in terms of sustaining care (rain on just and unjust) and that love that compelled the death and resurrection. Throughout the NT the death and resurrection are for believers only. Such benefits believers only. And believers are brought into the adoption not by their own authority.

Actually, desire more often has less to do about love and more to do about peace and safety. Which is exactly the overwhelming presentation of 1 Timothy 2:1-6.

Doesn’t even mention love in that passage, but the practical application of living Godly.

I think you nailed your own self, because it wasn’t the “case” that got nailed.

Your own post shows how your view is fake.

 

Per hour, sorry for the delay in responding.

I like your thoughtful questions.

In short, to take a line from my friend’s testimony in song, “God never moves without purpose and plan.”

Our Lord said, “I go to prepare a place for you...”. In another statement He tells of the place “prepared for the devil...”

See how one is present one is past tense.

Both places are preparation for creation. It shows the love of God even towards the evil ones. He prepares for believers while sustaining that eternity for unbelievers.

We, the Romans, the apostles are a people for His name.

In the prayer our Lord gave as an example of how to pray, He said, “Thy kingdom come.” Standing before Pilot He said, “My kingdom is not of this world...”. We are “in this world but not of this world. “. We are ambassadors of His kingdom in temporary residence at His bidding.

He has compelled a ministry for us that involves letting the world know about the King and Kingdom.

He has gifted us with certain abilities to help each other as members of the Kingdom, but also to show the remarkable difference between the Kingdom of our King and the earthly kingdoms of the enemy.

In all the letters of 5he apostles the personal pronouns (us, we, our, ...) are believers. I

Ephesians 1:

In all wisdom and insight 9He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him 10with a view to an administration suitable to the fullness of the times, that is, the summing up of all things in Christ, things in the heavens and things on the earth. In Him 11also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will, 12to the end that we who were the first to hope in Christ would be to the praise of His glory. ​

The summing up of all things is found in the last chapters of the Revelation. Following the millennial reign, the final uprising, the passing away of the old creation, the final judgment of the ungodly, and the revealing of that place He has prepared for us. That place that none has yet to see save the Father and Son. A place unpolluted by the sinful enemies of Christ.

The sum of all things, WE will be finally home.

 

Still devoid of content, just bluster and false claims.

1) Irresistible grace is false doctrine, demonstrated by Matthew 23:13
2) God demonstrated His love for all mankind by dying for all mankind.
3) Your use of "adoption" as a past event rather than a future event is bogus.
4) No one brings themselves into salvation by their own authority, yet another strawman argument.
5) Dying to become the propitiation or means of salvation for the whole world is more about love and suffering, than peace and safety.
6) 1 Timothy 2:4-6 "4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave Himself as a ransom for all, the testimony given at the proper time.

To summarize: The stealth effort to assert God does not love all mankind or that God did not demonstrate that love by dying for all mankind, to become the propitiation or means of salvation for all mankind has failed.

 

Perhaps this it is time I withdraw from this thread.

My offer of support and help stands.