When you deprecate the teachers that God has given, and imply they're useless in helping others see the truth, what alternative is there?
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Apostolic Uniqueness - total dependence on God
- Thread starter JonC
- Start date
I believe Scripture is the only authority - NOT teachers men may decide are divinely inspired.
The idea that men we choose (typically the ones we agree with) are to guide us into truth is almost (if not exactly) RCC thought.
God gave us His revelation in the form of Scripture. Even those teachers you uplift are to be measured by Scripture.
Insofar as my actual posts - I have not depreciated any teachers (I just do not give them the authority you seem to prescribe). Even the teachers you follow are to be measured against Scripture. All I have said is that Scripture is our authority, God has given us the Spirit as a Helper, and Christians are indwelt by the Spirit.
if you have the Holy Spirit with in you the Bible says you have no need of a teacher because the Spirit is now your teacher.
1Jn_2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.
MB
I think the key is authority. Scripture tells us that God gifts the church with teachers. BUT Scripture also tells us that the teachings are to be weighed against Scripture.
What @Aaron seems to be suggesting are teachers who are infallible because they are given of God (e.g., the Pope). For example, I listen to my pastor as a teacher - but I do not accept his teachings on his authority (and am free to disagree with the man). I appreciate the works of John Piper and John Calvin. But I do not submit to their teachings.
Scripture is our authority - not the teachings of men. In fact, when you look back, those teachers that men seem to want to disciple themselves under are the teachers that they have chosen. They are merely elevating their own views by elevating the teachings of men as if they were Scripture.
I have no idea where you got the idea of uniqueness thing but scripture says we are all the same. As far as the anointing of the Holy Spirit which I believe this is speaking about is not unique. Who ever has the Spirit has there teacher inside of them. People are as like what Jon said they heap there favorite teachers to them selves. That is the one's who say what they like. The Bible is like a two edged sword it builds up the good parts in you and cuts away the bad. Because we all still have two natures we need to be taught what we are lacking, and we need to be taught what is wrong. There is always something wrong. No one has a perfect doctrine or a perfect, in the flesh," teacher". A Pastor or human teacher is not above us. We are all the same. If you get right down to it a Pastor or a teacher is a servant just like any other Christian. This does not mean I'm disrespectful it's just that "title" does not make men any better than they really are..Christ instructed us not to call any man Rabbi ,father, or Pastor even teacher because we only have one Father .Pastor. Teacher. and The Lord is all of them wrapped into one.
MB
Lol. You're the one suggesting your own infallibility, suggesting you have no need of teachers. I'm not suggesting anything close.
And yet John wrote them a letter to teach them, telling them to beware of false teachers presuming to teach them the "true" meaning of the things they were first taught 1 John 2:24 ff.
The "anointing" here does not invalidate the operations of the Spirit. He made some teachers, not all. You cannot suppose from this epistle that John is saying each individual possesses all gifts in himself and does not need the diverse operations and administrations of the Spirit that He divided as He saw fit.
That's boneheaded poppycock.
As I said I mean no disrespect. This is what I was getting at.
at 23:8 But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren.
Mat 23:9 And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.
Mat 23:10 Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ.
Mat 23:11 But he that is greatest among you shall be your servant.
Mat 23:12 And whosoever shall exalt himself shall be abased; and he that shall humble himself shall be exalted.
My point is those terms give men prestige they do not deserve. We are all brothers each just as faulty as the next. None is better except for Christ alone.
MB
I do not see where @Aaron has done that at all. He did write, "Are teachers not one of the gifts given to the church by Christ when He ascended?" What does scripture say?
Ephesians 4:11-13 11 And He gave some as apostles, and some as prophets, and some as evangelists, and some as pastors and teachers, 12 for the equipping of the saints for the work of service, to the building up of the body of Christ; 13 until we all attain to the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a mature man, to the measure of the stature which belongs to the fullness of Christ. (emphasis mine)
I do not see where @Aaron was suggesting teachers are acting ex-cathedra when they teach. The closest we get to that is the authority of the Apostles, and only then as their words are part of the canon of scripture. The didactic writings of the Apostles are actually God's teachings and, therefore, authoritative and binding on all Christians.
How are we to approach non-apostolic teachers like pastors/elders? We are to obey them to the extent that they are accurately proclaiming the truth of scripture. Paul admonishes Timothy to faithfully discharge the duties of his calling:
1 Timothy 4:11-16 11 Prescribe and teach these things. 12 Let no one look down on your youthfulness, but rather in speech, conduct, love, faith and purity, show yourself an example of those who believe. 13 Until I come, give attention to the public reading of Scripture, to exhortation and teaching. 14 Do not neglect the spiritual gift within you, which was bestowed on you through prophetic utterance with the laying on of hands by the presbytery. 15 Take pains with these things; be absorbed in them, so that your progress will be evident to all. 16 Pay close attention to yourself and to your teaching; persevere in these things, for as you do this you will ensure salvation both for yourself and for those who hear you.
If some pastors or elders abuse their office and consider themselves to be above the sheep of Christ's flock, then their error is upon them but it does not negate the proper role of the pastor/elder. Perhaps this is one of the reasons why James' warning to teachers is a somber reminder to anyone who aspires to be a teacher of the word of God.
James 3:1 Let not many of you become teachers, my brethren, knowing that as such we will incur a stricter judgment.
Of course not, because you don't have any. It's always the one who thinks of him self as better than the rest ,who accuses others of there own faults.
MB
I did not see any evidence of Aaron saying anything close to that..
He did not so words had to be inserted trying to suggest such a notion to try and cancel out what he actually said.
It is better to let each person say what they think, and what they post...not edit in or out ideas that did not come from them.
I believe Pail wrote the book of Ephesians. Christ spoke against calling men Rabbi's,father, pastors, and teachers ,along with master, Christ said we are all brothers. Besides Paul never said to call them teacher, pastor Rabbi or master as if they are better than anyone else.
So by acting Pius we should do the same as they do act like we are better than rest. I have met a few pastors who admit they are no better but it has been very few.
There is nothing wrong with being a preacher or teacher although it's an office, not a title of distinction.
So true; sort of like" practice what you preach"
MB
No it does not.
Your idea , and the idea of others does not address the issue.
To suggest the Apostles were no different tha anyone else is a dreadful falsehood.
Why should the scriptures even suggest there are Apostles, signs of an Apostle, that they were foundational?
This thread uses the term from the other thread, but does not even speak of it at all.
I bet you cannot even provide ONE post where I suggested that I have no need of teachers.
Go ahead....try.
Look at the my posts and @Aaron 's reply. NOTE that I never denied that we are gifted teachers, I never equated the Holy Spirit to feelings and imagination. I never depreciated teachers or the role of teachers to the church.
What I said was that Scripture is our only authority and that the Holy Spirit is a Helper to guide believers. I said that believers can understand spiritual truth because of the Spirit (the unsaved can understand the stories but not the spiritual truths).
@Aaron 's reply:
Imagination? Feelings? This makes absolutely no sense because I've never said anything close. So I ask @Aaron to provide a quote where I equate the Holy Spirit to imagination or feelings. And he says this:
Deprecate teachers? Imply teachers are useless? Again, I've not depreciated teachers, stated or implied they are useless. So I ask for a quote where I depreciate teachers and I get this:
Once again, @Aaron is not making sense. I've never claimed infallibility (although I suspect @Iconoclast believes I hold that trait
).BUT there is a logical conclusion to @Aaron 's argument. And that is in his insistence that the belief the Holy Spirit is a real presence in guiding a believer amounts to "feelings" and "imagination" because when Christ ascended God gave us teachers. He took my belief that the Father and Son sent the Spirit as a Helper to us as negating the given role of teachers.
So I've taken it that @Aaron 's insistence that God gifted us teachers when Christ ascended is meant to take the place of the gifting of the Holy Spirit because that is how @Aaron has been arguing his position. If the belief that the Holy Spirit is active and a real presence in guiding the believer is "feelings" oriented (and therefore bad), but God gifted teachers to that role, then @Aaron 's position is very "romish".
Do we need teachers? Of course - that is why God gave us teachers. But this does not mean that these teachers take the place of God (of the Holy Spirit).
As I've never been exposed to such a "spiritless" or "information dependent" type of faith this is fairly new to me (I grew up in SBC churches and in the South, so we were always very conservative and pretty literal when it came to the idea of dependence the Spirit at a personal level). So I am interested in this idea that y'all have - is it unique to Reformed Baptists (as opposed to Calvinistic Baptists like Spurgeon...who often emphasized the role of the Spirit)?
Aaron did not suggest infallible teachers. Like a Pope? I have not seen him ever post that idea. That was what I was posting about.
That is the logical conclusion to his post.
1. He rejected my view that Scripture is our only authority for doctrine with the Christian deoendent on the Holy Spirit as being imagination and feelings.
2. His solution was teachers rather than the Holy Spirit.
This is romish belief (like a pope).
God gave us Scripture. God gave us the Spirit. And God gave us teachers.
Have you considered why you both object so much with the idea God actually guides His children?
THAT is the question that needs to be considered.