Apostolic Uniqueness - total dependence on God

[agedman]

Had Paul read the Word of God prior to his trip to Damascus? Having so read, and assuming, he assumed he understood the Word of God was he not in reality blind and in ignorance to the Word of God.

Are we not the very same. By the will of God, do we not have to have the scales of blindness removed from our minds in order to know the truth of the Word of God?

When was the blindness of Paul's mind removed? 9:15 or 9:18?

These are good thoughts.

It must also be remembered that to the Jew, salvation and communion with God took place through the offices of the priests, and more particularly the offices in performance duty at the temple.

Saul (Paul) was about as politically, socially, economically, and theologically tied in as an elitist of each area as one could become. This is part of the reason that hardly had he experienced conversion and the rulers of the Jews gathered seeking to kill him. He held great influential power. He could also out debate all Jews concerning the Scriptures (Jews enjoy debate of Scriptures) as validated by him entering multiple places of Jewish worship and leading untold numbers of the priests and leaders to the Christ.


Prior to the road to Demascus, Paul stumbled over the very problem the Apostles did (prior to the resurrection) by rejecting the thinking that the Messiah would die. Remember the anointing done at Simon the leper’s house?

The Jews were temple bound. It was there way to be redeemed, and the leaders held authority of inclusion and exclusion to the temple worship. To the typical Jews temple access was the ability to enter as sinless the kingdom of God. This is why Jesus said that the leaders prevented those entering from entering in Matthew.

A member of the BB misappropriated this verse to support the failed view of partial human ability. It is erroneously taking the verse out of the context of who and the cultural aspects of their thinking.

 

[MB]

OK, but how do you know you are being lead by the Spirit? I had a woman recently tell me that God gave her peace in leaving her husband because she no longer loves him and God does not want her to be miserable. I asked her how she knew her "peace" was from God and she replied, "Because I prayed about it." You may say this is an extreme example but it is not. It happens all the time.

Could it be that the real answer lies in the Spirit confirming in our minds the truth of scripture and that scripture is the source of truth about God?

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk

I'm sorry I just do not believe anyone can turn love on and off. There are a lot of people who have no idea what true love really is.When we love someone and it's real love I believe you will always love them. You just cannot help your self. Many get married for sex or for something other than love and when that something fades away they claim they no longer love them. But this is the fleshly love of self satisfaction It's not real. Someone needs to explain what love really is to this person.
Our prayer is just thoughts yet those thoughts some how get through and you know they did when your prayer is answered. God speaks to our hearts the same way. I don't mean that He prays to us but I believe He does send us thoughts. I can't explain it very well but I know instinctively when a thought is from God. I've been warned about things and I've been told Yes and No. The positive thoughts I really appreciate. My Prayers always get answered sooner or later God has his own time schedule.
MB

 

[agedman]

I'm sorry I just do not believe anyone can turn love on and off. There are a lot of people who have no idea what true love really is.When we love someone and it's real love I believe you will always love them. You just cannot help your self. Many get married for sex or for something other than love and when that something fades away they claim they no longer love them. But this is the fleshly love of self satisfaction It's not real. Someone needs to explain what love really is to this person.
Our prayer is just thoughts yet those thoughts some how get through and you know they did when your prayer is answered. God speaks to our hearts the same way. I don't mean that He prays to us but I believe He does send us thoughts. I can't explain it very well but I know instinctively when a thought is from God. I've been warned about things and I've been told Yes and No. The positive thoughts I really appreciate. My Prayers always get answered sooner or later God has his own time schedule.
MB

One cannot love as God would have believers love without attaining and remaining accordingly what is established by Peter in 2 Peter 1:3-11.

Human generated “love” is without lasting substance and is ultimately useless.

 

[MB]

One cannot love as God would have believers love without attaining and remaining accordingly what is established by Peter in 2 Peter 1:3-11.

Human generated “love” is without lasting substance and is ultimately useless.

Imagine that we actually agree
MB

 

[Aaron]

Why not ask God how it's done. Personally I don't understand how someone with your obvious education doesn't know. Doesn't God direct your path?
How is it anyone knows the truth from a lie. Knowing starts with questions and when those questions are in God's hand they will be answered.
MB

I'm asking for Jon's take, not because I don't know.

 

[Aaron]

You, @Aaron , are the one insisting that Scripture cannot be the criteria for testing spiritual things because of differences in interpretation. I believe that your conclusion misses the point of "spiritual truths". But that's another issue.

YOU assume that neither the Holy Spirit nor Scripture is the criteria for teachings, but rather that we are to follow "God given teachers". The problem is you have not been able to explain how you choose the teachers you follow absent the Spirit and Scripture.

Apart from Scripture as a standard, how do you decide to follow the teachers you select?

You know what, it's impossible for us to converse.

The Spirit guides through its operations in the body of Christ. Its first act in a believer is to open his eyes. The believer looks into the (Law delivered by a preacher) as he looks into a mirror and sees the cursed sinner staring back at him. The Spirit has guided the new believer into the Truth of who he is, and Who God is.

By God's Word at last my sin I learned,
Then I trembled at the law I'd spurned.

It isn't simply the act of comparing things with the Bible, it's believing it. Didn't tremble? Don't assemble with believers, because you aren't one.

This knowledge drives us to Christ for forgiveness.

Till my guilty soul, imploring, turned to Calvary.

But the outward manifestation of going to Christ is in going to his ministers for baptism, teaching and discipleship, and assembling where the operations of the Spirit are performed (Not talking about Pentecostalism, or charismania). In other words, obedience. It is a gradual and lifelong process of growth. One adds to his faith virtue, and to virtue knowledge, and to knowledge temperance, and to temperance patience, and to patience godliness, and to godliness brotherly kindness, and to brotherly kindness charity.

For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ, Who is the Truth.​

That's how the Spirit guides into all truth. It is not independent of his human ministers, living or sleeping. Except in the case of the Apostles, who were taught directly by Christ in person, and by direct, supernatural revelation.

 

[JonC]

You know what, it's impossible for us to converse.

The Spirit guides through its operations in the body of Christ. Its first act in a believer is to open his eyes. The believer looks into the (Law delivered by a preacher) as he looks into a mirror and sees the cursed sinner staring back at him. The Spirit has guided the new believer into the Truth of who he is, and Who God is.

By God's Word at last my sin I learned,
Then I trembled at the law I'd spurned.

It isn't simply the act of comparing things with the Bible, it's believing it. Didn't tremble? Don't assemble with believers, because you aren't one.

This knowledge drives us to Christ for forgiveness.

Till my guilty soul, imploring, turned to Calvary.

But the outward manifestation of going to Christ is in going to his ministers for baptism, teaching and discipleship, and assembling where the operations of the Spirit are performed (Not talking about Pentecostalism, or charismania). In other words, obedience. It is a gradual and lifelong process of growth. One adds to his faith virtue, and to virtue knowledge, and to knowledge temperance, and to temperance patience, and to patience godliness, and to godliness brotherly kindness, and to brotherly kindness charity.

For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ, Who is the Truth.​

That's how the Spirit guides into all truth. It is not independent of his human ministers, living or sleeping. Except in the case of the Apostles, who were taught directly by Christ in person, and by direct, supernatural revelation.

I still hold that Owen's assassment of a role of the Spirit is correst in that the Spirit guides the believer to spiritual truth - to understand spiritual things in a spiritual manner.

"Didn't tremble? Don't assemble with believers, because you aren't one."

Unbelievers simply do not have that capacity because they are not indwelt by the Spirit. It is more than compairing things with Scripture. It is more than a cognative belief of Scripture. God APPLIES His Word to and in our life. As Arthur pink pointed out, it is the WORK of the Holy Spirit in our lives.

An atheist can read Scripture and grasp the facts. The words are not written at an advanced level. An athist can understand the theological principles. But ONLY at a cognative or "flesh" level.

Apart from the Spirit Scripture points to a gospel that is seems to the world as foolishness.

Another work of the Spirit is in sanctification as the believer is transformed into the image of Christ. Our entire walk IS in the Spirit and guided in dependence on and to the Spirit.

Christ's example that we are to follow was in complete obedience to the Father through the Spirit. Christ DID NOT work on His own accord but submitted His will to do the will of the Father. We are to have that mind in is.

"Didn't tremble? Don't assemble with believers, because you aren't one." The believer is of the Spirit - not the flesh.

 

[Reformed]

"Didn't tremble? Don't assemble with believers, because you aren't one." The believer is of the Spirit - not the flesh.

Jon, what are you saying here?

 

[JonC]

Jon, what are you saying here?

I am agreeing with @Aaron by repeating what he stated.

Men are saved by God through faith. Men are not saved through human wisdom even if its subject is Scripture.

The believer is of the Spirit - reborn - made a new creation in Christ. Conversion is more than an affirmation of doctrine.

 

[Aaron]

I still hold that Owen's assassment of a role of the Spirit is correst in that the Spirit guides the believer to spiritual truth - to understand spiritual things in a spiritual manner.

"Didn't tremble? Don't assemble with believers, because you aren't one."

Unbelievers simply do not have that capacity because they are not indwelt by the Spirit. It is more than compairing things with Scripture. It is more than a cognative belief of Scripture. God APPLIES His Word to and in our life. As Arthur pink pointed out, it is the WORK of the Holy Spirit in our lives.

An atheist can read Scripture and grasp the facts. The words are not written at an advanced level. An athist can understand the theological principles. But ONLY at a cognative or "flesh" level.

Apart from the Spirit Scripture points to a gospel that is seems to the world as foolishness.

Another work of the Spirit is in sanctification as the believer is transformed into the image of Christ. Our entire walk IS in the Spirit and guided in dependence on and to the Spirit.

Christ's example that we are to follow was in complete obedience to the Father through the Spirit. Christ DID NOT work on His own accord but submitted His will to do the will of the Father. We are to have that mind in is.

"Didn't tremble? Don't assemble with believers, because you aren't one." The believer is of the Spirit - not the flesh.

I said this, only I gave specifics from the Scripture that you didn't.

"The Spirit guides in a spiritual manner." Lol. True, but not useful.

 

[JonC]

I said this, only I gave specifics from the Scripture that you didn't.

"The Spirit guides in a spiritual manner." Lol. True, but not useful.

Yes, you are right that the Spirit guides in a "spiritual manner"...but that's like saying an automobile drives like a vehicle .

I'm not sure what you mean by the statement. It seems rather useless.

I think John Owen's comment that the Holy Spirit guides the believer to understand spiritual things in a spiritual manner is far more useful than your assertion that the Spirit guides in a spiritual manner.

The reason is that the believer and unbeliever can study the same Scripture and the same "spiritual things". But those without the Spirit cannot understand the things of the Spirit. One MUST be born again.

 

[Aaron]

Yes, you are right that the Spirit guides in a "spiritual manner"...but that's like saying an automobile drives like a vehicle .

Which was your explanation, not mine.

I think John Owen's comment that the Holy Spirit guides the believer to understand spiritual things in a spiritual manner is far more useful than your assertion that the Spirit guides in a spiritual manner.

Holy paraphrases, Batman! Anyone here see a difference in meaning?

 

[JonC]

Which was your explanation, not mine.

Holy paraphrases, Batman! Anyone here see a difference in meaning?

No. That was not my explanation. It was a misstatement of John Owen's explanation that I provided.

There is a huge difference between saying "the Spirit guides spiritually" and "the Sprit guides the believer to understand spiritual things in a spiritual manner".

If the difference escapes you ask the Spirit to guide your understanding .

 

[37818]

There is a huge difference between saying "the Spirit guides spiritually" and "the Sprit guides the believer to understand spiritual things in a spiritual manner".

How is that different? The latter specifying who, that is, "the believer" and in what "spiritual things in a . . . manner." The latter is claiming that "the Spirit guides spiritually," not being contrary.

 

[JonC]

How is that different? The latter specifying who, that is, "the believer" and in what "spiritual things in a . . . manner." The latter is claiming that "the Spirit guides spiritually," not being contrary.

One says the Spirit guides spiritually.

The other says that the believer UNDERSTANDS SPIRITUAL THINGS IN A SPIRITUAL MANNER (in opposition to the natural man) through the Spirit.

I like word games so I enjoy the attempt. But the contest of Owen's statement is to what the believer is guided.

 

[37818]

One says the Spirit guides spiritually.

The other says that the believer UNDERSTANDS SPIRITUAL THINGS IN A SPIRITUAL MANNER (in opposition to the natural man) through the Spirit.

I like word games so I enjoy the attempt. But the contest of Owen's statement is to what the believer is guided.

I presume that is clear to you. I honestly fail to understand the distinction your are making. One statment is a generally true statement, is it not? The other specifies how that generally true statement is true. How does specifying make that generally true statement false?

 

[JonC]

I presume that is clear to you. I honestly fail to understand the distinction your are making. One statment is a generally true statement, is it not? The other specifies how that generally true statement is true. How does specifying make that generally true statement false?

I have no idea what you are asking.

That the Spirit guides spiritually....as opposed to what?....unspiritually?... It does not say much but I do not claim the statement false. The Spirit does guide spiritually.

My affirmation, however, concerned Owens idea that the Spirit guides the believer to arrive at an understanding of spiritual matters.

Do you understand the difference in the two true statements?

 

[37818]

Do you understand the difference in the two true statements?

Yes. But what I seem not to be understanding is a disagreement over the difference between two true statements.

 

[JonC]

Yes. But what I seem not to be understanding is a disagreement over the difference between two true statements.

I will try to help - the disagreement is not one of Scriptire but one if the Engkish language.

#1 - "The Spirit guides spiritually."

Here the Spirit is dong an action - guiding. "Spiritually" describes the guidance of the Spirit.

#2 - Because of the guidence of the Spirit the believer comes to understand the spiritual nature of spiritual materials.

Here the subject is not the Spirit but the result og His work. What is "spiritual" is not the guidence but the understanding into which the believer is guided.

Do you now see how the statements differ in meaning? Both may be true but they are not saying the same thing.

Can John Owen's comment be taken to be #1? ONLY if divorced from its context (which forces #2 as correct).

The natural man who has not been born again CANNOT understand spiritual things in a spiritual manner (this was Owen's point).

Did that explanation help show that #1 and #2 are not identical statements (their meaning is not the same)?

 

[37818]

Do you understand the difference in the two true statements?

Please explain to me the difference you are referring to. The Spirit guiding in specific spiritual matters is still the Spirit guiding. So what is the differences you are referring to?