Where Does Faith Come From II

[Revmitchell]

Iconclast said:

Hello RM,
First I want to thank you for being honest enough to stick to your view and post it publically.
We differ substantially and that is no secret to anyone.I did however appreciate you not trying to twist my words, or change yours just for the sake of trying to distort what was said as certain others have done.Thank you.

Actually I would appreciate it if you would not do that very thing.

The word of God is perfect yes, but it does not save everyone all by itself.

Again twisting my words. I never argued that. I expect you to go back and actually read my words and represent them correctly.

The position I and every real Calvinist offer is that the gospel is the power of God unto salvation, as God the Holy Spirit does his hidden unseen work as Jesus describes in John3:3-12.
Without that work no one is saved, not one.

You are conflating believe and regeneration. I do not.

In what I see as a partial reply you mentioned that men have everything they need, both Adam and us.
When asked about the "fall"...
You spoke of it as interference???
I enquired about this as it gets to in large part the core of our disagreement.
You did not clarify this, perhaps another thread or two will help. Thanks again for your honesty which not all display on here.

I did make it clear from the start. God must pursue us. (I John 4:19) We see an example of that with Adam and Eve in the garden after they fell. Today we are pursued with the gospel. Where does faith come from? Scripture is clear in Romans 10:17, Romans 1:16, and James 1:18) If He did not pursue us we would not come to Him but the gospel is both the method of pursual and the obtaining faith. I did not say it God di via Paul in His book to the church in Rome. You may disagree with that but your issue is not with me it is with those passages.

What it does not need is an extra measure of supernatural grace to first regenerate us so we can believe. And contrary to your view that, my friend, is the crux of the matter in our disagreement.

 

[MB]

Reformed wrote this to me in the last thread same subject.

MB, do you have to be corrected on this by me a second time? No Calvinist believes they need to be saved in order to believe. None. Zero. Zilch. Nada. Every Calvinist believes regeneration precedes faith/belief. If they do not then they are faux-Calvinists.

Here is the problem regeneration is Salvation with out which one is not saved..This below is it definition.
REGENERA'TION, n.
1. Reproduction; the act of producing anew.
2. In theology, new birth by the grace of God; that change by which the will and natural enmity of man to God and his law are subdued, and a principle of supreme love to God and his law, or holy affections, are implanted in the heart.
He saved us by the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit. Titus 3.

Being born again is regeneration and being saved. You cannot be born again with out being saved.

You can't have it two ways. Faith whether you know it or not is one of the things we are saved by and is a requirement for being born anew. So when you say you are saved first so you can have faith means you are saved with out faith. That faith comes later is false it can't be anything less.
MB

 

[Reformed1689]

Again twisting my words. I never argued that. I expect you to go back and actually read my words and represent them correctly.

Then why did you ask me if Scripture was sufficient enough to save?

 

[Revmitchell]

Then why did you ask me if Scripture was sufficient enough to save?

That is not what I asked you.

 

[Reformed1689]

That is not what I asked you.

Yes it is. Where Does Faith Come From? What do you think you asked me?

 

[Reformed1689]

That is not what I asked you.

Ok technically you said belief. But you are splitting hairs.

 

[Revmitchell]

Ok technically you said belief. But you are splitting hairs.

No, its not splitting hairs, two completely different things.

 

[Reformed1689]

No, its not splitting hairs, two completely different things.

Fine, why did you ask whether Scripture was sufficient to believe? Do you agree that all who believe will be saved? Because if you do, then they aren't two completely different things.

 

[Revmitchell]

Fine, why did you ask whether Scripture was sufficient to believe? Do you agree that all who believe will be saved? Because if you do, then they aren't two completely different things.

Its like you are looking for a strawman.

 

[Reformed1689]

Its like you are looking for a strawman.

Nope, asking a legitimate question. Your favorite goto thing is "oh that is looking for a strawman" when it's not the case. How about you just engage in honest debate or just not post at all?

 

[kyredneck]

No, its not splitting hairs, two completely different things.

Again, you don't know what you're talking about, and, your reading comprehension is awful:

16 yet knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, even we believed on Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ, and not by the works of the law: because by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. Gal 2

6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned unto him for righteousness.
7 Know therefore that they that are of faith, the same are sons of Abraham. Gal 3

22 even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ unto all them that believe; for there is no distinction; Ro 3

13 But having the same spirit of faith, according to that which is written, I believed, and therefore did I speak; we also believe, and therefore also we speak; 2 Cor 4

Davidtaylorjr is right, you are indeed splitting hairs.

[add]

The word 'faith' is not to be found in the gospel of John, but John certainly uses the word 'believe' in it.

 

[Iconoclast]

Revmitchell,

I did make it clear from the start. God must pursue us. (I John 4:19)

How does God pursue us.?

We see an example of that with Adam and Eve in the garden after they fell. Today we are pursued with the gospel.

How exactly...a pastor preaches the gospel, then what happens?

Where does faith come from? Scripture is clear in Romans 10:17, Romans 1:16, and James 1:18) If He did not pursue us we would not come to Him but the gospel is both the method of pursual and the obtaining faith.

What makes it work? How is it the method? how is it obtaining of faith? If 1000 people hear the gospel, what determines who believes it, and who does not?

What it does not need is an extra measure of supernatural grace to first regenerate us so we can believe.

This is what I commented on the first time. This seems to be a denial of John 3
Unless the unseen work of the Holy Spirit takes place, salvation does not happen.

And contrary to your view that my friend, is the crux of the matter in our disagreement.

Yes..it sure is. I think this is a denial of john 3

 

[Revmitchell]

Revmitchell,





Yes..it sure is. I think this is a denial of john 3

And this are the kind of statement that shuts down reasonable discussion. Just because someone disagrees with your view does not mean a denial of scripture. Its childish and not helpful. I do not deny scripture I deny your flawed interpretation of scripture.

 

[Reformed]

Reformed wrote this to me in the last thread same subject.


Here is the problem regeneration is Salvation with out which one is not saved..This below is it definition.
REGENERA'TION, n.
1. Reproduction; the act of producing anew.
2. In theology, new birth by the grace of God; that change by which the will and natural enmity of man to God and his law are subdued, and a principle of supreme love to God and his law, or holy affections, are implanted in the heart.
He saved us by the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit. Titus 3.

Being born again is regeneration and being saved. You cannot be born again with out being saved.

You can't have it two ways. Faith whether you know it or not is one of the things we are saved by and is a requirement for being born anew. So when you say you are saved first so you can have faith means you are saved with out faith. That faith comes later is false it can't be anything less.
MB

MB,

You are having difficulty understanding how all the different components of the Order of Salvation function. You also have a different view of the state of sinful man than Calvinists. I am traveling this week, visiting friends and family in New Jersey, so I do not have my laptop. There is only so much I can type on my phone. For that reason, please read with the late R.C. Sproul says on regeneration. I am in agreement with it. Here is the link: Ligonier Ministries


Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk

 

[Iconoclast]

And this are the kind of statement that shuts down reasonable discussion. Just because someone disagrees with your view does not mean a denial of scripture. Its childish and not helpful. I do not deny scripture I deny your flawed interpretation of scripture.

What shuts down discussion is you not answering post 143 on the other thread,line by line.
You make vague statements, you get questioned, and retreat claiming you answered when you did not.

 

[Revmitchell]

What shuts down discussion is you not answering post 143 on the other thread,line by line.
You make vague statements, you get questioned, and retreat claiming you answered when you did not.

So, my posts are available for all to see. I even started a thread just to answer your post. Of course this is just obfuscation over your poor behavior. The fact that you and a few others do not know enough to be ashamed of your tactics says more than I ever could. There are at least three other reformed members of this board I have had discussions with and this garbage never happens. It is isolated to just a few, you being one of them.

 

[Jerome]

please read with the late R.C. Sproul says on regeneration. I am in agreement with it. Here is the link: Ligonier Ministries

In your link Sproul proclaims

Jesus tells us we cannot even see the kingdom of God unless we are first born again. If we cannot see the kingdom, we certainly cannot enter it; thus, regeneration precedes faith.

Does this separation of regeneration from faith have something to do with these Presbyterians baptizing unconverted babies?
I think Iconoclast has a better take on this than your Presbyterian authority. Icon recently explained to us that regeneration does not come sequentially before faith: It's not regeneration, then faith; they are simultaneous:

When we receive Christ by faith as He is offered to us, we are delivered from death, reconciled with God, and regenerated by the Holy Spirit.

I can agree with this statement....
these things occur simultaneously
not one in front of another one behind the other
simultaneously

 

[37818]

Reformed wrote this to me in the last thread same subject.


Here is the problem regeneration is Salvation with out which one is not saved..This below is it definition.
REGENERA'TION, n.
1. Reproduction; the act of producing anew.
2. In theology, new birth by the grace of God; that change by which the will and natural enmity of man to God and his law are subdued, and a principle of supreme love to God and his law, or holy affections, are implanted in the heart.
He saved us by the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit. Titus 3.

Being born again is regeneration and being saved. You cannot be born again with out being saved.

You can't have it two ways. Faith whether you know it or not is one of the things we are saved by and is a requirement for being born anew. So when you say you are saved first so you can have faith means you are saved with out faith. That faith comes later is false it can't be anything less.
MB

It was pointed out that the term translated "regeneration" occurs twice.

". . . And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. . . ." -- Matthew 19:28. Here it seems to be talking about the resurrection.

". . . Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; . . ." -- Titus 3:5. Here it is understood, I think, to refer to our being born again.

 

[MB]

MB,

You are having difficulty understanding how all the different components of the Order of Salvation function. You also have a different view of the state of sinful man than Calvinists. I am traveling this week, visiting friends and family in New Jersey, so I do not have my laptop. There is only so much I can type on my phone. For that reason, please read with the late R.C. Sproul says on regeneration. I am in agreement with it. Here is the link: Ligonier Ministries


Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk

I understand it I just reject it as non biblical. I will never accept it, because it simply isn't true to scripture. If you say men have to be regenerated before they can believe then you are saying you are saved before Salvation. Regeneration is being saved. If man does not have faith and god's grace he is lost
MB

 

[Reformed1689]

I understand it I just reject it as non biblical. I will never accept it, because it simply isn't true to scripture. If you say men have to be regenerated before they can believe then you are saying you are saved before Salvation. Regeneration is being saved. If man does not have faith and god's grace he is lost
MB

Did you even read the link? Ligonier Ministries