Reformed1689
Well-Known Member
I agree that they happen close together, but there does have to be a change before you can believe.
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Where Does Faith Come From II
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Reformed1689
Well-Known Member
What tactics? Asking questions you refuse to answer? Pinning your logic into a corner so you say "Straw Man" "Obfuscation" etc,?
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I read all I need to read.
Sproul says;
"However, while we cannot usually distinguish the point at which the Holy Spirit changes our hearts from the point at which we come to Christ, it must be noted that regeneration always takes place before we exercise faith."
This proves my point That Calvinist believe they are regenerated before faith. IOW's Saved with out faith. Which is not biblical. Then sproul says;
"Our new life — our love for and trust of the Savior — flows from the new birth, not vice versa. This is clearly taught in John 3:3 where Jesus tells us we cannot even see the kingdom of God unless we are first born again. If we cannot see the kingdom, we certainly cannot enter it; thus, regeneration precedes faith. In regenerating our hearts, the Holy Spirit opens our eyes, making us able to obey in faith"
We do not obey in faith. We obey Jesus because we love our Savior. Faith is believing. No faith no Salvation. I'm convinced that I've read enough balogna for the evening
MB
Reformed1689
Well-Known Member
solid Particular Baptists who've warned against the 'regeneration before faith' & 'born again before faith' & etc. contrivances:
Charles Spurgeon, "The Warrant of Faith"
"If I am to preach faith in Christ to a man who is regenerated, then the man, being regenerated, is already saved! It is unnecessary and ridiculous for me to preach Christ to him, and bid him to believe in order to be saved, when he is saved already, being regenerate!"
Abraham Booth, "Glad Tidings to Perishing Sinners":
"the page of inspiration does not warrant our supposing, that any one is born of God, before he believes in Jesus Christ....To contend, indeed, that regeneration must be prior to faith, and to justification, is like maintaining, That the eldest son of a nobleman must partake of the human nature, before he can have that filial relation to his father, which constitutes him an heir to the paternal estate, and entitles him to those honours which are hereditary in the family. For the human nature, derived from his parents, and the relation of a son, being completely of the same date; there is no such thing as priority, or posteriority, respecting them, either as to the order of time, or the order of nature. They are inseparable; nor can the one exist without the other---Thus it is, I conceive, with regards to regeneration, faith in Christ, and justification before God. For, to consider any man as born of God, but not as a child of God; as a child of God, but not believing in Jesus Christ; as believing in Jesus Christ, but not as justified; or as justified, but not as an heir of immortal felicity; is, either to the last degree absurd, or manifestly contrary to apostolic doctrine."
The 1689 London Baptist Assembly
"none can be said to be actually reconciled, justified, or adopted, until they are really implanted into Jesus Christ by faith; and so by virtue of this their union with him, have these fundamental benefits actually conveyed unto them. And this, we conceive, is fully evidenced, because the scripture attributes all these benefits to faith as the instrumental cause of them, Rom. iii. 25. v. 1, 11. Gal. iii. 26. And gives such representation of the state of the elect before faith, as is altogether inconsistent with an actual right in them. Eph. ii. 1, 2, 3, 12."
Charles Spurgeon, "The Warrant of Faith"
"If I am to preach faith in Christ to a man who is regenerated, then the man, being regenerated, is already saved! It is unnecessary and ridiculous for me to preach Christ to him, and bid him to believe in order to be saved, when he is saved already, being regenerate!"
Abraham Booth, "Glad Tidings to Perishing Sinners":
"the page of inspiration does not warrant our supposing, that any one is born of God, before he believes in Jesus Christ....To contend, indeed, that regeneration must be prior to faith, and to justification, is like maintaining, That the eldest son of a nobleman must partake of the human nature, before he can have that filial relation to his father, which constitutes him an heir to the paternal estate, and entitles him to those honours which are hereditary in the family. For the human nature, derived from his parents, and the relation of a son, being completely of the same date; there is no such thing as priority, or posteriority, respecting them, either as to the order of time, or the order of nature. They are inseparable; nor can the one exist without the other---Thus it is, I conceive, with regards to regeneration, faith in Christ, and justification before God. For, to consider any man as born of God, but not as a child of God; as a child of God, but not believing in Jesus Christ; as believing in Jesus Christ, but not as justified; or as justified, but not as an heir of immortal felicity; is, either to the last degree absurd, or manifestly contrary to apostolic doctrine."
The 1689 London Baptist Assembly
"none can be said to be actually reconciled, justified, or adopted, until they are really implanted into Jesus Christ by faith; and so by virtue of this their union with him, have these fundamental benefits actually conveyed unto them. And this, we conceive, is fully evidenced, because the scripture attributes all these benefits to faith as the instrumental cause of them, Rom. iii. 25. v. 1, 11. Gal. iii. 26. And gives such representation of the state of the elect before faith, as is altogether inconsistent with an actual right in them. Eph. ii. 1, 2, 3, 12."
1689Dave
Well-Known Member
There are two types of faith. One I call "Honest Charlie" used car faith. The type of faith you buy used cars with. This is the type of faith Catholics build their sacrament system around. And free will preachers depend on trying to "close the deal" for Jesus. This type of faith is from the flesh and cannot save. It turns the gospel into law. And makes obedience (works) the means of salvation.
Biblical faith is a fruit of the Holy Spirit that creates a faithful nature in the born again. This is the faith said to be a fruit of the Holy Spirit.
Biblical faith is a fruit of the Holy Spirit that creates a faithful nature in the born again. This is the faith said to be a fruit of the Holy Spirit.
Having been declared righteous, then, by faith (< Genitive, out of faith), we have peace toward God through our Lord Jesus Christ, Romans 5:1 YLT
By what/whose faith is one declared, made, righteous?
YLT Romans 5:19 for as through the disobedience of the one man, the many were constituted sinners: so also through the obedience of the one, shall the many be constituted righteous.
What is the relationship of obedience of the one to faith and or faith to the obedience?
What is, the faith, that we heard of/about, that brought the ability for us to have the grace of life, ie eternal life, for us to be heirs of the grace of life? See 1 Peter 3:7 for heirs of the grace of life.
For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; 1 Cor 15:3
Did Christ, the Son of God, born of woman, actually die? Was he really dead? Just how long was he dead? When, Christ, was dead, was Christ dead or alive? If Christ had not been made alive again from death would there have ever been any hope for man? Would there even have been a word called faith? What did we hear of, about?
And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: 1 Cor 15:4
Was being, made alive from the dead, regeneration if you please, absolutely necessary to the word, faith?
1 Cor 15:17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith, vain; ye are yet in your sins.
who in the days of his flesh both prayers and supplications unto Him who was able to save him from death -- with strong crying and tears -- having offered up, and having been heard in respect to that which he feared, through being a Son, did learn by the things which he suffered -- the obedience, Heb 5:7,8 YLT
and in fashion having been found as a man, he humbled himself, having become obedient unto death -- death even of a cross, Phil 2:8 YLT
You heard about:
Obedience of Faith.
And it is all about the Father and the Son and it brought forth for us, the Holy Spirit which makes us heirs of hope, heirs of grace of life?
Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life. Titus 2:6,7
What made the Holy Spirit available to be shed?
John 16:7
Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
There would be no faith. There would be no life from death. There would not have been, Obedience of Faith!
By what/whose faith is one declared, made, righteous?
YLT Romans 5:19 for as through the disobedience of the one man, the many were constituted sinners: so also through the obedience of the one, shall the many be constituted righteous.
What is the relationship of obedience of the one to faith and or faith to the obedience?
What is, the faith, that we heard of/about, that brought the ability for us to have the grace of life, ie eternal life, for us to be heirs of the grace of life? See 1 Peter 3:7 for heirs of the grace of life.
For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; 1 Cor 15:3
Did Christ, the Son of God, born of woman, actually die? Was he really dead? Just how long was he dead? When, Christ, was dead, was Christ dead or alive? If Christ had not been made alive again from death would there have ever been any hope for man? Would there even have been a word called faith? What did we hear of, about?
And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: 1 Cor 15:4
Was being, made alive from the dead, regeneration if you please, absolutely necessary to the word, faith?
1 Cor 15:17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith, vain; ye are yet in your sins.
who in the days of his flesh both prayers and supplications unto Him who was able to save him from death -- with strong crying and tears -- having offered up, and having been heard in respect to that which he feared, through being a Son, did learn by the things which he suffered -- the obedience, Heb 5:7,8 YLT
and in fashion having been found as a man, he humbled himself, having become obedient unto death -- death even of a cross, Phil 2:8 YLT
You heard about:
Obedience of Faith.
And it is all about the Father and the Son and it brought forth for us, the Holy Spirit which makes us heirs of hope, heirs of grace of life?
Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life. Titus 2:6,7
What made the Holy Spirit available to be shed?
John 16:7
Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
There would be no faith. There would be no life from death. There would not have been, Obedience of Faith!
A great amount of this thread amounts to folks actually agreeing, yet attempting to separate the atoms from the molecule which ultimately destroys the molecular structure.
1) Belief and faith are the same interchangeable word. Do not attempt to separate it.
2) Regeneration is the catalyst of and not the results of transformation (renewal of the mind...).
3) The expressing of belief is not the catalyst, but the results of the action of the catalyst. The expression does not bring change, it is that product of change. The renewal of the mind, is just one “seen” aspect of the catalyst. There are others “seen” as the progress of regeneration oozes, foams, churns, conquering and does combat reacting with the Scriptures against the worldly nature.
Do not. Separate belief (faith) and regeneration.
If one makes such an attempted separation, then either humans become the author of salvation by first having to accept, take, gain, ... the attention of God, or the unrighteousness are placed into a neutral estate in which they again author salvation (this is commonly called prevenient grace - not found in Scripture), or the separation creates a two (or more) stages of salvation which leads to those who would say, “I wasn’t completely saved the first time”, or some other “half life” statement.
Remember the old Alka Seltzer commercial? The plop and fiz were inseparable, contained in the same disk, immersed together to bring relief from sorrow and peace to the turmoil.
Do not separate what God puts together to redeem a person.
1) Belief and faith are the same interchangeable word. Do not attempt to separate it.
2) Regeneration is the catalyst of and not the results of transformation (renewal of the mind...).
3) The expressing of belief is not the catalyst, but the results of the action of the catalyst. The expression does not bring change, it is that product of change. The renewal of the mind, is just one “seen” aspect of the catalyst. There are others “seen” as the progress of regeneration oozes, foams, churns, conquering and does combat reacting with the Scriptures against the worldly nature.
Do not. Separate belief (faith) and regeneration.
If one makes such an attempted separation, then either humans become the author of salvation by first having to accept, take, gain, ... the attention of God, or the unrighteousness are placed into a neutral estate in which they again author salvation (this is commonly called prevenient grace - not found in Scripture), or the separation creates a two (or more) stages of salvation which leads to those who would say, “I wasn’t completely saved the first time”, or some other “half life” statement.
Remember the old Alka Seltzer commercial? The plop and fiz were inseparable, contained in the same disk, immersed together to bring relief from sorrow and peace to the turmoil.
Do not separate what God puts together to redeem a person.
Faith comes from using our God given ability to seek God and trust in Christ by believing the gospel of Christ.
The "gift of faith" via irresistible grace is bogus, found no where in scripture.
Ephesians 2:8-9 teaches the gift of God is salvation by grace, and that gift is accessed through God crediting our faith in Christ as righteousness. 2 Thessalonians 2:13 teaches we are not only saved through faith, we are chosen for salvation through faith. Thus the gift of faith is a logical impossibility.
The "gift of faith" via irresistible grace is bogus, found no where in scripture.
Ephesians 2:8-9 teaches the gift of God is salvation by grace, and that gift is accessed through God crediting our faith in Christ as righteousness. 2 Thessalonians 2:13 teaches we are not only saved through faith, we are chosen for salvation through faith. Thus the gift of faith is a logical impossibility.
The greatest error (imo) is considering that some may spend eternity in the second death while having something not condemned of their human attributes.
Serious is this error.
That one would assume that there is something of dust which God recognizes as other than that disposable. Does not the Scripture state believers are transformed!
Worthless is every attribute of the unregenerate. Unacceptable and condemned is every attribute for if it were not true then the Scriptures lie when it is stated the believers are a new creation. That all is new, and other passages indicating that the redeemed have nothing entering the new heaven and earth from the old.
Such thinking of some expression of human volition is just “bogus” as well as the claim that humankind of their own volition can enter heaven or actually prevent others from entering.
Heaven is not a place gained by invitation!
Heaven is a place of appointment just as death is by appointment.
Serious is this error.
That one would assume that there is something of dust which God recognizes as other than that disposable. Does not the Scripture state believers are transformed!
Worthless is every attribute of the unregenerate. Unacceptable and condemned is every attribute for if it were not true then the Scriptures lie when it is stated the believers are a new creation. That all is new, and other passages indicating that the redeemed have nothing entering the new heaven and earth from the old.
Such thinking of some expression of human volition is just “bogus” as well as the claim that humankind of their own volition can enter heaven or actually prevent others from entering.
Heaven is not a place gained by invitation!
Heaven is a place of appointment just as death is by appointment.
37818
Well-Known Member
So how do you get regenration from natural revelation? Romans 10:17-18. Psalms 19:4.
This is simply not true. Here is why God is the author no matter what man does in response:
1. God created all things.
2. God sustains all things.
3. God saves out of His good pleasure not because of anything we do and our response does not change that.
4. God devised the plan in which men would be saved.
5. God ordained the boundaries in which men would be saved.
6. Man could not do any of the above.
7. The Father sent His Son to die and be resurrected. No man could do this.
8. God's standard for Holy is the measure by which men are redeemed.
9. Only Jesus could fulfill that standard of Holiness.
Now right here is where anything meritorious stops regardless of what response, God requires man to do. Since all of the above is true then it cannot be said that man earns his own salvation by believing. Man believing is irrelevant to who gets credit for salvation. The reason is without all of the above all the belief in the world doesn't matter.
Further, salvation is described by God as a free gift. When man believes he is receiving that gift. Since when does the reception of the gift also considered part of the giving. It never is considered part of the giving except by Augustinians to support their errant doctrine.
Not certain that either passage is about "natural revelation."
God chooses through the work and presentation of the Scriptures those of His purpose from the humankind those to be redeemed.
A longer quote from the Romans passage you referenced will help explain how this has taken place:
Romans 10 states that Moses gave the law, and by the law righteousness was obtained. However, the Scriptures state that no person is justified by the law, for the best folks could do is look at the law, not fulfill the law. Christ fulfilled the law and at that end righteousness is found in Him.
17So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ.
18But I ask, have they not heard? Indeed they have, for
(Who carried the message? Remember the dispersions of the Jews in the OT? How did the Gentile magi know a king of the Jews was to be born? Because "their voice has gone out to all the earth." (The word of the Law and of a hoped for Messiah had been taken by the Jews everywhere they went. Later, believers would also go out carrying the news, of the fulfillment of the law in that Messiah.)18But I ask, have they not heard? Indeed they have, for
“Their voice has gone out to all the earth,
and their words to the ends of the world.”
and their words to the ends of the world.”
19But I ask, did Israel not understand? First Moses says,
“I will make you jealous of those who are not a nation;
with a foolish nation I will make you angry.”
with a foolish nation I will make you angry.”
20Then Isaiah is so bold as to say,
“I have been found by those who did not seek me;
I have shown myself to those who did not ask for me
I have shown myself to those who did not ask for me.”
I have shown myself to those who did not ask for me
I have shown myself to those who did not ask for me.”
21But of Israel he says, “All day long I have held out my hands to a disobedient and contrary people.”
Therefore, regeneration is given to those chosen by God ("those who did not seek me, ... did not ask for me")
It is not the choice of humankind, it is the purposes of God that make the difference.
Hope that helps.
Ok, let's look over your presentation:
But you actually don't hold strictly to #3, for by your own statements concerning human volition you grasp on that human volition is the determiner. That a person's own human volition and natural faith they may accept or reject the claim of God upon their life. This is why you hold to "prevenient grace."
No problem.
The standard for redemption is not what is Holy, but what is proclaimed and assigned Holy (sanctified) by God. Just as the parts of the temple and the high priest were ceremonially sanctified (proclaimed Holy) it was not a measurement, but a title change. That which was unholy proclaimed by God holy. God has proclaimed many things holy, even the ground before Moses at the burning bush, the land around the Sinai Mountain, the vow one makes, ...
It is that proclamation that precedes salvation, not follows. God has already proclaimed ownership, and therefore the person's salvation is not imparted by human volition, but by command of God.
This is true as it relates to the Law, for no person is justified by the law.
However, it is also abundantly clear that humankind have no ability to attain such by any action they can muster, be it human derived faith, works, will, or strength of character.
Again, taking your statement of face value, then what about the bold statements of prevenient grace in which a person in some manner is lifted into a neutral estate that some human volition of choice can be made to accept or reject the offer of salvation. There is inconsistency between that which you innumerate and such a construct that corporate election and human volition oblige. You may attempt to limit what is considered "meritorious" but to claim such is puffed up authority of little value. The consistency of your posts show that you don't end the discussion, but carry it further.
If you actually stand on the side and proclaim "... it cannot be said that man earns his own salvation," then you are obliged to admit such salvation from the authoring to the finishing is of God through Christ. Such includes even the ability granted to express belief from a core "regenerated" (though I don't really like that term).
You ascribe salvation as a "free gift" but then use terms such as humankind must gain the gift by some action. Your "free gift" then is determined upon human action. Therefore, the gift is not truly free for it is dependent and interlinked as one might a contractual relationship between two parties in which remuneration is given for action.
Btw, I don't hold much to Augustine as a person or teaching, be it eschatology or soteriology.
Perhaps a bit of illustration will display the differences between us on this issue:
Typically when one wraps a gift, there also includes some indication of the person for whom the gift is intended. It is specific to that person, and appropriately selected for that person. As one is able, the gift is personally present by handing over the gift and transferring total authority of the gift to that person. Now all that is good for your thinking and view. However salvation is no such gift. It is not even an accurate portrayal.
Rather, salvation is a new creation. In crude terms, it is as that which took place with Mary. The gift, the formation, the preservation, the purpose, the outcome, ... was not of Mary's choosing, rather she was hand picked for a specific purpose.
Where you would portray the gift as if were a present neatly wrapped, I would present that gift is life implanted in the person. Romans quotes Isaiah:
These are good.
But you actually don't hold strictly to #3, for by your own statements concerning human volition you grasp on that human volition is the determiner. That a person's own human volition and natural faith they may accept or reject the claim of God upon their life. This is why you hold to "prevenient grace."
No problem.
The standard for redemption is not what is Holy, but what is proclaimed and assigned Holy (sanctified) by God. Just as the parts of the temple and the high priest were ceremonially sanctified (proclaimed Holy) it was not a measurement, but a title change. That which was unholy proclaimed by God holy. God has proclaimed many things holy, even the ground before Moses at the burning bush, the land around the Sinai Mountain, the vow one makes, ...
It is that proclamation that precedes salvation, not follows. God has already proclaimed ownership, and therefore the person's salvation is not imparted by human volition, but by command of God.
This is true as it relates to the Law, for no person is justified by the law.
However, it is also abundantly clear that humankind have no ability to attain such by any action they can muster, be it human derived faith, works, will, or strength of character.
Again, taking your statement of face value, then what about the bold statements of prevenient grace in which a person in some manner is lifted into a neutral estate that some human volition of choice can be made to accept or reject the offer of salvation. There is inconsistency between that which you innumerate and such a construct that corporate election and human volition oblige. You may attempt to limit what is considered "meritorious" but to claim such is puffed up authority of little value. The consistency of your posts show that you don't end the discussion, but carry it further.
If you actually stand on the side and proclaim "... it cannot be said that man earns his own salvation," then you are obliged to admit such salvation from the authoring to the finishing is of God through Christ. Such includes even the ability granted to express belief from a core "regenerated" (though I don't really like that term).
You ascribe salvation as a "free gift" but then use terms such as humankind must gain the gift by some action. Your "free gift" then is determined upon human action. Therefore, the gift is not truly free for it is dependent and interlinked as one might a contractual relationship between two parties in which remuneration is given for action.
Btw, I don't hold much to Augustine as a person or teaching, be it eschatology or soteriology.
Perhaps a bit of illustration will display the differences between us on this issue:
Typically when one wraps a gift, there also includes some indication of the person for whom the gift is intended. It is specific to that person, and appropriately selected for that person. As one is able, the gift is personally present by handing over the gift and transferring total authority of the gift to that person. Now all that is good for your thinking and view. However salvation is no such gift. It is not even an accurate portrayal.
Rather, salvation is a new creation. In crude terms, it is as that which took place with Mary. The gift, the formation, the preservation, the purpose, the outcome, ... was not of Mary's choosing, rather she was hand picked for a specific purpose.
Where you would portray the gift as if were a present neatly wrapped, I would present that gift is life implanted in the person. Romans quotes Isaiah:
“I have been found by those who did not seek me;
I have shown myself to those who did not ask for me.”
I have shown myself to those who did not ask for me.”
No I don't. God is still the determiner no matter what response He requires from us.
If someone gives you a gift and you reach out and take it, is that taking it you did considered work you had to do to earn that gift?
Here, again, you see salvation as a present that offered which must betaken rather then that which is bestowed.
Rather,
Not long ago, a person required blood. It was vital to give vitality, for they had nothing to sustain them. They were in no authority or have any agreement, yet given that which brought life. A gift of life.
That person did not seek, nor ask, but was bestowed and given the gift - life.
You avoided my question. Not a single reformed person has been able to deal with that question yet.
Nope, didn’t avoid it. I stated that using such illustration did not apply as you would want.
I gave you a more appropriate illustration.
If I were to accept you illustration as valid, then you would have to explain how “will of man” must be left out. For you illustration included that willful element of becoming a child of God that the Scripture expressly states cannot take place.
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