Where Does Faith Come From II

[Reformed1689]

Yet another "taint so" post addressing my behavior rather than the topic. This is all they have.

And this is all you have saying that we said "taint so." You can't exegete the passages, you can't support your interpretations. You know we will tear them apart because they are unbiblical and not found in the text itself.

Where does it say we have a God give capacity (without a supernatural work of the Spirit) to accept Christ? It doesn't say that at all. It says there are none who understand, there are none who seek after God.

 

[Van]

And this is all you have saying that we said "taint so." You can't exegete the passages, you can't support your interpretations. You know we will tear them apart because they are unbiblical and not found in the text itself.

Where does it say we have a God give capacity (without a supernatural work of the Spirit) to accept Christ? It doesn't say that at all. It says there are none who understand, there are none who seek after God.

More denial of the obvious, more "taint so."

Where does it say we cannot receive the gospel with joy in an unregenerate state?
Where does it say that are none who understand, that are none who seek after God "at any time?"

The whole doctrine has been read into the text, adding here, taking away there, and rewriting in yet another place.

 

[Reformed1689]

Where does it say we cannot receive the gospel with joy in an unregenerate state?

I quoted Scripture for you.

Where does it say that are none who understand, that are none who seek after God "at any time?"

Why are you adding to the text? Where does it say they can at certain times without the work of the Spirit? You are the one adding to it. You need to support your position. You can't do it.

 

[Van]

I quoted Scripture for you.

Why are you adding to the text? Where does it say they can at certain times without the work of the Spirit? You are the one adding to it. You need to support your position. You can't do it.

Scripture does not say "at any time." But scripture does present many examples where the lost do seek God such as Matthew 23:13!

And note folks, how "without the work of the Spirit" has been added to my statements. But no quote will be provided. So yet another strawman construct to deflect from the truth.

Did Christ perform miracles by the power of the Holy Spirit? Yes
Was His life recorded in the gospels by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit ? Yes
Are all those saved by God first drawn by God? Yes

Is the gospel the power of God for salvation? Yes

Pay no attention to those who misrepresent scripture, and posters.

 

[Reformed1689]

Scripture does not say "at any time." But scripture does present many examples where the lost do seek God such as Matthew 23:13!

Again, EXEGETE the passage to prove your claim. That is not what the verse is saying. Are you unable to do this?

And note folks, how "without the work of the Spirit" has been added to my statements. But no quote will be provided. So yet another strawman construct to deflect from the truth.

We have given Scripture about God drawing those who will be saved. So not sure why you are trying to make it out to be some sort of mystery.

Did Christ perform miracles by the power of the Holy Spirit? Yes
Was His life recorded in the gospels by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit ? Yes
Are all those saved by God first drawn by God? Yes

Is the gospel the power of God for salvation? Yes

Pay no attention to those who misrepresent scripture, and posters.

What does any of that have to do with our current route of conversation?

This is simple Van, it is not the Calvinists that obfuscate, distract, deflect, etc. It is you. You can't support your arguments with sound exegesis. It's ok, just be man enough to admit it.

 

[Van]

Again, EXEGETE the passage to prove your claim. That is not what the verse is saying. Are you unable to do this?

More denial of the obvious.

Reset

Scripture does not say "at any time." But scripture does present many examples where the lost do seek God such as Matthew 23:13!

And note folks, how "without the work of the Spirit" has been added to my statements. But no quote will be provided. So yet another strawman construct to deflect from the truth.

Did Christ perform miracles by the power of the Holy Spirit? Yes
Was His life recorded in the gospels by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit ? Yes
Are all those saved by God first drawn by God? Yes
Is the gospel the power of God for salvation? Yes

Pay no attention to those who misrepresent scripture, and posters.[/QUOTE]

 

[Reformed1689]

More denial of the obvious.

Reset

Scripture does not say "at any time." But scripture does present many examples where the lost do seek God such as Matthew 23:13!

And note folks, how "without the work of the Spirit" has been added to my statements. But no quote will be provided. So yet another strawman construct to deflect from the truth.

Did Christ perform miracles by the power of the Holy Spirit? Yes
Was His life recorded in the gospels by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit ? Yes
Are all those saved by God first drawn by God? Yes
Is the gospel the power of God for salvation? Yes

Pay no attention to those who misrepresent scripture, and posters.

[/QUOTE]
Thank you for proving my point. You either can't or won't exegete the passage.

 

[Dave G]

Two arguments are used to deny that some of the unregenerate lost can and do seek God and can and do trust in Christ.

1) The claim is made, as above, that those that seek God have already been regenerated. But Matthew 13 teaches lost folks accepted with gospel with joy, and other lost folks, treasured the gospel, but failed to treasure it more than other worldly treasures.

2) The second argument is to claim those seeking God were not "actually seeking God." However, Matthew 23:13 blows that argument out of the water because the lost were actually in the process of entering the kingdom. However, they were blocked by false teaching.

Van, I'd like to address these points again ( which I'm aware the subjects of have been batted back and forth to quite some extent ), but I doubt it will change your position.
It does, however, give me some practice digging into Scriptures for myself and it also helps to sharpen my own "sword":

1) Matthew 13 has many things to share with believers, and most are done in parables.
He makes this ( what I consider to be a profound and spiritual ) statement very early on, after speaking a parable :
" And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?" ( Matthew 13:10 )

What was His answer?
" He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given." ( Matthew 13:11 )

To them it is not given...
So, right here I see a God who is selective in who He reveals Himself and His truth to, and not willing to reveal Himself to.
The very first time I ran into this in my reading , I thought, " This cannot be!".

That was when I decided to dig deeply to find if there were other places in Scripture that stated this "concept"...I didn't have far to go:
" All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and [he] to whomsoever the Son will reveal [him]." ( Matthew 11:27 )

No man knows the Son but the Father, and no man knows the Father but the Son...and adds, to whomseover the Son will reveal.

A little farther:
" When Jesus came into the coasts of Cæsarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am?
14 And they said, Some [say that thou art] John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets.
15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?
16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-jona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed [it] unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven." ( Matthew 16:13-17 )

For a person to "see" the Father, He must be revealed to them by the Son.
In order to get the "ears to hear" and "eyes to see" ( Matthew 11:15 and many others ), they must be given to a person.
In other words, the Lord has to open a person's understanding, so that they might understand the word of God ( Luke 24:45 ).

Otherwise, the carnal mind that is at enmity with God ( Romans 8:5-8 ), cannot and will not understand it.
They are "natural" ( as opposed to spiritual ) men ( 1 Corinthians 2:14-16 ).

So, the reason the Lord speaks to some in parables ( to hide the truth from them ) and make it known to others, is because God is selective when it comes to who He reveals Himself to.
The parables of in Matthew 13 are designed to reveal truth to the spiritual, regenerate mind, and conceal it from the carnal mind.

In the parable of the tares, I see Satan sowing his own children, the children of disobedience, in among the "wheat" of Christ's field.
They are false believers who not only do not have the Spirit of God, but are not saved.

In the parable of the sower, I see 4 types of "soil", 3 of which are bad and will not produce fruit.
What fruit?
Please see Galatians 5:22-23.
The Lord explains both of these parables in plain speech, to His disciples in Matthew 13:18-23, and Matthew 13:36-43...in other words, he gives the reader the plain meaning of them.



Put it all together, and there are false believers among the true...they neither have the Spirit nor genuinely desire the things of God.
Their hearts have never been changed, and they will never understand Scripture for themselves, because they do not have "ears to hear" and "eyes to see".

They are the ones the Lord will say, "I never knew you" in Matthew 7:21-23.


I hope this helps.

 

[Dave G]

2) Matthew 23:13

" But he that is greatest among you shall be your servant.
12 And whosoever shall exalt himself shall be abased; and he that shall humble himself shall be exalted.
13 But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in [yourselves], neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.
14 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows’ houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation.
15 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves." ( Matthew 23:11-15 )


In verse 11, I see that the Lord is finished speaking to the mixed multitude...both saved and unsaved...the religious, and His disciples ( Matthew 23:1 ), and He is telling them about the Pharisees who are sitting in Moses' seat...the seat of the prophets.

In verse 12, He is telling His disciples that whosoever among them ( His sheep ) shall abase themselves shall be exalted and vice-versa.

Then in verse 13 He starts in on the Pharisees, condemning them for shutting up the kingdom against men, for they are neither going in, nor do they permit others to go in.

In verse 14 He makes the observation that they devour widow's houses ( probably by demanding money from them ) and pretentiously make long prayers. Because of this they shall receive the greater damnation from God.

Verse 15 is where I see that He then condemns them for not only traveling all over, making false disciples for themselves, but making those twofold more the children of the devil then they themselves already are ( see John 8:44 ).


So, in Matthew 23:13, they are false teachers, and they are standing in the way of those that have been compelled to come in ( see the parable of the wedding, Matthew 22:1-14 ).


May God bless you sir.

 

[Reformed1689]

2) Matthew 23:13

" But he that is greatest among you shall be your servant.
12 And whosoever shall exalt himself shall be abased; and he that shall humble himself shall be exalted.
13 But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in [yourselves], neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.
14 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows’ houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation.
15 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves." ( Matthew 23:11-15 )


In verse 11, I see that the Lord is finished speaking to the mixed multitude...both saved and unsaved...the religious, and His disciples ( Matthew 23:1 ), and He is telling them about the Pharisees who are sitting in Moses' seat...the seat of the prophets.

In verse 12, He is telling His disciples that whosoever among them ( His sheep ) shall abase themselves shall be exalted and vice-versa.

Then in verse 13 He starts in on the Pharisees, condemning them for shutting up the kingdom against men, for they are neither going in, nor do they permit others to go in.

In verse 14 He makes the observation that they devour widow's houses ( probably by demanding money from them ) and pretentiously make long prayers. Because of this they shall receive the greater damnation from God.

Verse 15 is where I see that He then condemns them for not only traveling all over, making false disciples for themselves, but making those twofold more the children of the devil then they themselves already are ( see John 8:44 ).


So, in Matthew 23:13, they are false teachers, and they are standing in the way of those that have been compelled to come in ( see the parable of the wedding, Matthew 22:1-14 ).


May God bless you sir.

@Van see how easy it was to exegete the passage? By the way, you can quit peddling your incorrect interpretation of this passage now. Your logic has been torn to shreds.....again....

 

[Revmitchell]

[QUOTE="agedman, post: 2512609, member: 11131" ]Find an illustration of one that needs life, that has no self acquisition ability, and is given such a gift not based upon their status, breeding, will, and strength. [/quote]

That is your presupposition. It interferes with your ability to see the plain reading of scripture.

 

[Dave G]

@davidtaylorjr
Please remember our Lord's admonition here:

2 Timothy 2:22-26.

I believe it is important to treat others, no matter who they are, with deference and respect.
Also, those of us that have been given the gift of teaching ( dunno if I have, but it's possible ), should be mindful that Scripture takes a while to "coalesce" in the mind of the believer.
We are dull of "hearing" ( Hebrews 5:11 ) and fruit takes time to grow, as well.


May God, in His wisdom, show you many things through His word.

 

[Dave G]

To respond to the OP:

I did make it clear from the start. God must pursue us. (I John 4:19)

I agree.
We love Him, because He first loved us ( which I think is limited to believers ).

We see an example of that with Adam and Eve in the garden after they fell.

Perhaps, and I have heard sermons on that very subject when I was a young believer back in the early 80's.
I think more fitting examples are the parables of the lost sheep, the prodigal son, and the lost talent.

Where does faith come from?

To me ( and I realize we've hashed this out before, to great extent ) faith is a gift ( Ephesians 2:8 ) given by God to His children, authored and finished by His Son ( Hebrews 12:2 ), and that not all men possess ( 2 Thessalonians 3:2 ).
It comes to them by "hearing" the word of God ( Romans 10:17 ), and the Gospel itself has no real power...
But the words, combined with the inner working of the Spirit ( 1 Corinthians 2:9-13 ) are what has made all the difference.

The faith spoken of, is the faith "of Christ", which means to me, that it originates and proceeds forth from Him ( Galatians 2:20, Galatians 3:22 ).

Back to Romans 10:17.
If faith came to all men by hearing ( physically ), then that would rule out the deaf having faith.
If it comes by "hearing" ( exposure, written or otherwise ), then I think it prudent that you should to explain, Scripturally, why some believe and some don't, which the Bible does answer.
However, if it comes by "hearing" spiritually, then there's a problem:

Men don't want to hear from God in their natural state ( 1 Corinthians 2:14 ) and those that are perishing think the preaching of the cross is foolishness, while we that are saved know that it is the power of God ( 1 Corinthians 1:18 ). But the carnal mind, that is at "enmity" with God ( Romans 8:5-8 ), cannot please God.
Why is this important?

It takes faith to please God ( Hebrews 11:6 ), but yet, not all men have it.
Why don't all men have faith?
Because they haven't "heard"?

No, because they haven't "heard", spiritually.
That's where "calling" comes in ( Romans 8:29-30, etc ).
Faith must be a gift, not a reward.
It cannot be the means, but only a vehicle that we "ride in" and do things by, once we have been born from above.
Because it is the evidence of being born from above, not the "pre-requisite". ( Hebrews 11:1 ).

Yes, I agree that:
" Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures." ( James 1:18 )

Who are the "us" that James is speaking to?
Believers.
So, He has begotten believers with the word of truth, not unbelievers.
Again, why do some believe, and some do not?
Why do all men not have faith, even after being subjected to the word of God through the Gospel?

The answer is in John 10:26, John 6:64-65, John 17:2, and Acts of the Apostles 13:48, among many others.

May God bless you abundantly.

 

[Dave G]

What it does not need is an extra measure of supernatural grace to first regenerate us so we can believe.

Here's the problem I see it presented, in a nut shell:

If faith is available to all men ( the restriction being that they have to be exposed to the Gospel ) through the preaching of His word, then I'm still not seeing the Scripture that provides the "missing link" to answer the question of "why some believe and why some do not".

In my opinion, any teaching of vital doctrine, especially one that deals with how and why a person is saved and comes to trust in the Lord for everything, should be able to fill in all the pieces.
Any doctrine of salvation should be able to answer the questions that are put forth to it, at least in my mind, and to do so from strictly God's word.

But I'm seeing some things that look like contradictions in your approach, and I want to understand how you see salvation being accomplished, step, by step, answering ( potentially ) all of the questions that may be put to it.
Many of us believe that what is called "Calvinism" provides a very detailed picture of who, how, why and what is accomplished in God's act of saving someone...

What I want to know is, if not "Calvinism", then what provides an equally detailed set of answers that can be derived from Scriptural declarations alone?
The reason I think it wise to limit it to declarations, is that in my opinion, believers should never allow any doctrine to be set forth that is derived from implication, or a combination of implication and declaration.

I think a good example of this would be the "doctrine" of loss of salvation, which I believe to be largely built upon implication, and overlooks many clear Scriptural promises and declarations.


So, to start with ( and If you are willing ), please provide the answer as to why some believe and some do not, from God's word.

 

[Revmitchell]

To respond to the OP:


I agree.
We love Him, because He first loved us ( which I think is limited to believers ).


Perhaps, and I have heard sermons on that very subject when I was a young believer back in the early 80's.
I think more fitting examples are the parables of the lost sheep, the prodigal son, and the lost talent.



To me ( and I realize we've hashed this out before, to great extent ) faith is a gift ( Ephesians 2:8 ) given by God to His children, authored and finished by His Son ( Hebrews 12:2 ), and that not all men possess ( 2 Thessalonians 3:2 ).
It comes to them by "hearing" the word of God ( Romans 10:17 ), and the Gospel itself has no real power...
But the words, combined with the inner working of the Spirit ( 1 Corinthians 2:9-13 ) are what has made all the difference.

The faith spoken of, is the faith "of Christ", which means to me, that it originates and proceeds forth from Him ( Galatians 2:20, Galatians 3:22 ).

Back to Romans 10:17.
If faith came to all men by hearing ( physically ), then that would rule out the deaf having faith.
If it comes by "hearing" ( exposure, written or otherwise ), then I think it prudent that you should to explain, Scripturally, why some believe and some don't, which the Bible does answer.
However, if it comes by "hearing" spiritually, then there's a problem:

Men don't want to hear from God in their natural state ( 1 Corinthians 2:14 ) and those that are perishing think the preaching of the cross is foolishness, while we that are saved know that it is the power of God ( 1 Corinthians 1:18 ). But the carnal mind, that is at "enmity" with God ( Romans 8:5-8 ), cannot please God.
Why is this important?

It takes faith to please God ( Hebrews 11:6 ), but yet, not all men have it.
Why don't all men have faith?
Because they haven't "heard"?

No, because they haven't "heard", spiritually.
That's where "calling" comes in ( Romans 8:29-30, etc ).
Faith must be a gift, not a reward.
It cannot be the means, but only a vehicle that we "ride in" and do things by, once we have been born from above.
Because it is the evidence of being born from above, not the "pre-requisite". ( Hebrews 11:1 ).

Yes, I agree that:
" Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures." ( James 1:18 )

Who are the "us" that James is speaking to?
Believers.
So, He has begotten believers with the word of truth, not unbelievers.
Again, why do some believe, and some do not?
Why do all men not have faith, even after being subjected to the word of God through the Gospel?

The answer is in John 10:26, John 6:64-65, John 17:2, and Acts of the Apostles 13:48, among many others.

May God bless you abundantly.

So you are another one who believes the gospel is insufficient.

 

[Revmitchell]

H
In my opinion, any teaching of vital doctrine, especially one that deals with how and why a person is saved and comes to trust in the Lord for everything, should be able to fill in all the pieces.
Any doctrine of salvation should be able to answer the questions that are put forth to it, at least in my mind, and to do so from strictly God's word.

That is philosophy is the vein of can God make a rock so big He cannot lift it. Just because a question is asked doesn't mean it needs answering. We think to much of our own thinking. When scripture says that faith comes from hearing the word of God but no where says there is a supernatural extra act from God in that then we have to take scripture at its face. Further, I believe the word of God is in of itself powerful. Hebrews 4:12.

Whether or not someone does or does not accept the gospel does not diminish that.

 

[Reformed1689]

So you are another one who believes the gospel is insufficient.

Ok now I am confused, do you yourself not believe the Gospel by itself is insufficient to save?

 

[Dave G]

So you are another one who believes the gospel is insufficient.

Yes, I am, and I will qualify that:

I am someone who sees the differences between the words on the page, the spoken word, and the working of the Holy Ghost.
To me, the words themselves are God's very words, but unless accompanied by the work of His Spirit, it all falls on spiritually deaf ears.

The Gospel is precious...but the words have no actual power unless the Holy Spirit "powers" it.
That's why this is true:

" For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God." ( 1 Corinthians 1:18 ).

 

[Dave G]

When scripture says that faith comes from hearing the word of God but no where says there is a supernatural extra act from God in that then we have to take scripture at its face.

I do, which is why we are in agreement as to how faith comes to the believer.

Where we disagree, is that there is more information in Scripture that defines who it comes to ( Titus 1:1, Jude 1:3 ), who it does not ( 2 Thessalonians 3:2 ), and what it is the evidence of ( Hebrews 11:1 ).
To me, the Gospel, in the words of God, does not "carry" faith along like it's in a bucket...

That passage tells me, in conjunction with other declarative statements, that faith is from Christ.
In other words, in order to gain an understanding of where "saving faith" actually comes from, I study all relevant passages that give me as much detail as possible, and present the answer.

What I then see, is that based on this:
" and that we may be delivered from unreasonable and wicked men: for all [men] have not faith." ( 2 Thessalonians 3:2 )

... not all men have it.
So, if faith is available to all men by the Gospel, why do some who hear it not pick it up "out of the bucket"?


I believe I've answered this many times, but it seems to me that you are unable to provide Scripture that details why some believe, and why some do not.

All I'm asking for, is for you to get into the same detail on where you think faith comes from, by listing the Scriptures that provide those answers for your position.

 

[MB]

And this is all you have saying that we said "taint so." You can't exegete the passages, you can't support your interpretations. You know we will tear them apart because they are unbiblical and not found in the text itself.

Where does it say we have a God give capacity (without a supernatural work of the Spirit) to accept Christ? It doesn't say that at all. It says there are none who understand, there are none who seek after God.

It was a fool who first said the underlined above;
Psa 14:1 To the chief Musician, A Psalm of David. The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.
Psa 14:2 The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God.
Psa 14:3 They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
Psa 14:4 Have all the workers of iniquity no knowledge? who eat up my people as they eat bread, and call not upon the LORD.
Psa 14:5 There were they in great fear: for God is in the generation of the righteous.
Psa 14:6 Ye have shamed the counsel of the poor, because the LORD is his refuge.
Psa 14:7 Oh that the salvation of Israel were come out of Zion! when the LORD bringeth back the captivity of his people, Jacob shall rejoice, and Israel shall be glad.
Paul just quoted some of it.
MB