Where Does Faith Come From II

[Iconoclast]

[QUOTE="agedman, post: 2512609, member: 11131" ]Find an illustration of one that needs life, that has no self acquisition ability, and is given such a gift not based upon their status, breeding, will, and strength.

That is your presupposition. It interferes with your ability to see the plain reading of scripture.[/QUOTE]
Another non answer avoiding the issue.

 

[Dave G]

Further, I believe the word of God is in of itself powerful.

I'd like to post Hebrews 4:12 for the reader, if I may:

" For the word of God [is] quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and [is] a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart."

I think we both agree that this is the word of God, and that it means what it says.
Where I think we don't agree, is how every word of God, regarding the subject, can be brought to bear on this verse.
Everything that His word has to say on the subject, should be consulted and believed to arrive at a "composite picture" and a fully informed view of what exactly "saving faith" really is.
While God's word is powerful, I see that the power is only "fueled" in conjunction with the Spirit's working ( or not working ) in a "target" person.

This is why I see that His words do not penetrate people's hearts:

" For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard [it]." ( Hebrews 4:2 )

So, the word itself has no profit, unless it is mixed with faith.
Now, here's my question:

If faith comes by hearing ( and we know that it does ), and hearing by the word of God, why doesn't everyone have "saving faith"?
From my perspective, there are two choices...either we can assume that man's will has something to do with it, or, we can consult God's word for the answers.

I have, and this is what I have come up with:

Because faith is a fruit of the Spirit ( Galatians 5:22-23 ), which can only manifest itself in someone who is already born again ( Romans 8:9, Ephesians 1:13 ), then faith accompanies being born again, it does not precede it.

So, not only is faith a gift ( Ephesians 2:8 ), it is also a fruit of the Spirit and not the means, but the evidence ( Hebrews 11:1 ) of the new birth.

Without the word of God, faith does not come...but even with the word of God, faith only comes to those who have the Spirit.
Therefore, faith and belief are two different things.

 

[MB]

I do, which is why we are in agreement as to how faith comes to the believer.
Where we disagree, is that there is more information in Scripture that defines who it comes to ( Titus 1:1, Jude 1:3 ), who it does not ( 2 Thessalonians 3:2 ), and what it is the evidence of ( Hebrews 11:1 ).
To me, the Gospel, in the words of God, does not "carry" faith along like it's in a bucket...

That passage tells me, in conjunction with other declarative statements, that faith is from Christ.
In other words, in order to gain an understanding of where "saving faith" actually comes from, I study all relevant passages that give me as much detail as possible, and present the answer.

What I then see, is that based on this:
" and that we may be delivered from unreasonable and wicked men: for all [men] have not faith." ( 2 Thessalonians 3:2 )

I see that not all men have it.
So, if faith is available to all men by the Gospel, why do some who hear it not pick it up "out of the bucket"?


I believe I've answered this many times, but it seems to me that you are unable to provide Scripture that details why some believe, and why some do not.
All I'm asking for, is for you to get into the same detail on where you think faith comes from, by listing the Scriptures that provide those answers.

Hi Dave;
It is my opinion that most of the lost are kept too busy to pay any attention to God's word.
MB

 

[Revmitchell]

I am someone who sees the difference between the words on the page, the spoken word, and the working of the Holy Ghost.
To me, the words themselves are God's very words, but unless accompanied by the work of His Spirit, it all falls on spiritually deaf ears.

We will have to agree to disagree.

 

[Revmitchell]

While God's word is powerful, I see that the power is only "fueled" in conjunction with the Spirit's working ( or not working ) in a "target" person.

What I see is that His Spirit has already worked when He worked in the hearts of God's Children to write them.

 

[Dave G]

It is my opinion that most of the lost are kept too busy to pay any attention to God's word.

But, where do you go for that opinion...do you make a guess based on what seems right, or can you put your finger on something God, who is our only authority, ( and the only One we should be trusting, Proverbs 3:5-7 ) has to say on the subject?

 

[Iconoclast]

What I see is that His Spirit has already worked when He worked in the hearts of God's Children to write them.

This does not make sense to most people. We know the Spirit had men write the word. The word written is not magical. It needs the Spirit to allow, or enable a person to welcome it.

 

[Dave G]

What I see is that His Spirit has already worked when He worked in the hearts of God's Children to write them.

What about Hebrews 4:2?

 

[Revmitchell]

I do, which is why we are in agreement as to how faith comes to the believer.
Where we disagree, is that there is more information in Scripture that defines who it comes to ( Titus 1:1, Jude 1:3 ), who it does not ( 2 Thessalonians 3:2 ), and what it is the evidence of ( Hebrews 11:1 ).
To me, the Gospel, in the words of God, does not "carry" faith along like it's in a bucket...

I am puzzled by your use of those verses. None of them say or even suggest that faith is only made available to believers. Those verses do not even suggest that. They are clear that believers have faith but there is no break down on it being given to only some. It is an odd use of those passages for your point.

That passage tells me, in conjunction with other declarative statements, that faith is from Christ.
In other words, in order to gain an understanding of where "saving faith" actually comes from, I study all relevant passages that give me as much detail as possible, and present the answer.

Romans 10:17 is making a clear statement on where faith comes from. There is not a single word there that says that the gospel must also be accompanied by an extra act of grace. Nor does it declare that it is a gift. What is clear is that faith is available to anyone who hears the gospel.

What I then see, is that based on this:
" and that we may be delivered from unreasonable and wicked men: for all [men] have not faith." ( 2 Thessalonians 3:2 )

I see that not all men have it.
So, if faith is available to all men by the Gospel, why do some who hear it not pick it up "out of the bucket"?

Because they chose to reject it.

I believe I've answered this many times, but it seems to me that you are unable to provide Scripture that details why some believe, and why some do not.

John 1:11; 3:19

All I'm asking for, is for you to get into the same detail on where you think faith comes from, by listing the Scriptures that provide those answers.[/QUOTE]

I assume you have missed my many previous posts.I have over and over and over again. Romans 1:16, 10:17; James 1:18

 

[Dave G]

Romans 10:17 is making a clear statement on where faith comes from. There is not a single word there that says that the gospel must also be accompanied by an extra act of grace. Nor does it declare that it is a gift. What is clear is that faith is available to anyone who hears the gospel.

I think we'll have to disagree, Mark.
One thing I don't understand is, how I lost you.
I very methodically laid it out with Scriptural support, and you still disagree.

I'll have to live with that.

However, would you at least be willing to engage one of my posts, perhaps #73, and point out how you believe that my usage of the Scriptures is incorrect?

 

[Dave G]

I assume you have missed my many previous posts.I have over and over and over again. Romans 1:16, 10:17; James 1:18

No, I saw them, but I'll address those passages more thoroughly, if only to be as helpful as I can:
" For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek." ( Romans 1:16 )

Here I see that the Gospel of Christ is the power of God...to the Roman believers.
But the Gospel itself ( the words ) are not the power of God, it is the power of God unto salvation for someone...everyone that believeth.
It represents or heralds the power of God.

It is powerful, but only to a certain group.

The same can be said in 1 Corinthians 1:18.
To some it is foolishness, and to some, like the believer, it is ( or represents ) the power of God.

In other words, I see you misunderstanding, from my perspective, what this verse actually states.
If I also may point out, it appears that you focus on the words, "it is the power of God", and the other words, like, "unto salvation to everyone that believeth", go unnoticed.

I hope I'm in error, because as believers, I trust that every word should be important ( Matthew 4:4, Luke 4:4 ).

 

[Dave G]

Romans 10:17:

" So then faith [cometh] by hearing, and hearing by the word of God."

Indeed, faith does come by "hearing" and hearing by the word of God.
Faith comes to those who have "ears to hear" ( Matthew 11:15 ), and only those who have "ears to hear".

Once again, this agrees with what I see in 1 Corinthians 2:6-16.
The "natural" man ( the unregenerate, not-born-again person ) cannot and will not be able to have faith.
Not only because it is a fruit of the Spirit ( Galatians 5:22-23 ), but because there are times when the Gospel gets preached, and it does not profit people because it is not mixed with faith in them that hear it ( Hebrews 4:2 ).

That is what I see when I put all the pieces together.

 

[Dave G]

James 1:18:

" Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures."

I agree.
Of God's will He "begat" ( gave birth ) to the believer, spiritually.

He did not beget the unbeliever.
So, what does it take, in Scripture, for God to "beget" someone with His word?

I see that it takes His choice to do so, which is what the verse above is stating..."of His own will begat He us".
Not of our will ( John 1:13 ).

I also see that He has to do it...not the word alone.
He "begets" with the word...apart from the Holy Spirit's involvement, there is no "begetting".

 

[Reformed1689]

It was a fool who first said the underlined above;
Psa 14:1 To the chief Musician, A Psalm of David. The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.
Psa 14:2 The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God.
Psa 14:3 They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
Psa 14:4 Have all the workers of iniquity no knowledge? who eat up my people as they eat bread, and call not upon the LORD.
Psa 14:5 There were they in great fear: for God is in the generation of the righteous.
Psa 14:6 Ye have shamed the counsel of the poor, because the LORD is his refuge.
Psa 14:7 Oh that the salvation of Israel were come out of Zion! when the LORD bringeth back the captivity of his people, Jacob shall rejoice, and Israel shall be glad.
Paul just quoted some of it.
MB

No, that is not correct. The fool did not say that. In that passage the fool said "There is no God." The rest was not said by the fool.

 

[Revmitchell]

To respond to the OP:


I agree.
We love Him, because He first loved us ( which I think is limited to believers ).


Perhaps, and I have heard sermons on that very subject when I was a young believer back in the early 80's.
I think more fitting examples are the parables of the lost sheep, the prodigal son, and the lost talent.



To me ( and I realize we've hashed this out before, to great extent ) faith is a gift ( Ephesians 2:8 ) given by God to His children, authored and finished by His Son ( Hebrews 12:2 ), and that not all men possess ( 2 Thessalonians 3:2 ).
It comes to them by "hearing" the word of God ( Romans 10:17 ), and the Gospel itself has no real power...
But the words, combined with the inner working of the Spirit ( 1 Corinthians 2:9-13 ) are what has made all the difference.

The faith spoken of, is the faith "of Christ", which means to me, that it originates and proceeds forth from Him ( Galatians 2:20, Galatians 3:22 ).

Back to Romans 10:17.
If faith came to all men by hearing ( physically ), then that would rule out the deaf having faith.
If it comes by "hearing" ( exposure, written or otherwise ), then I think it prudent that you should to explain, Scripturally, why some believe and some don't, which the Bible does answer.
However, if it comes by "hearing" spiritually, then there's a problem:

Men don't want to hear from God in their natural state ( 1 Corinthians 2:14 ) and those that are perishing think the preaching of the cross is foolishness, while we that are saved know that it is the power of God ( 1 Corinthians 1:18 ). But the carnal mind, that is at "enmity" with God ( Romans 8:5-8 ), cannot please God.
Why is this important?

It takes faith to please God ( Hebrews 11:6 ), but yet, not all men have it.
Why don't all men have faith?
Because they haven't "heard"?

No, because they haven't "heard", spiritually.
That's where "calling" comes in ( Romans 8:29-30, etc ).
Faith must be a gift, not a reward.
It cannot be the means, but only a vehicle that we "ride in" and do things by, once we have been born from above.
Because it is the evidence of being born from above, not the "pre-requisite". ( Hebrews 11:1 ).

Yes, I agree that:
" Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures." ( James 1:18 )

Who are the "us" that James is speaking to?
Believers.
So, He has begotten believers with the word of truth, not unbelievers.
Again, why do some believe, and some do not?
Why do all men not have faith, even after being subjected to the word of God through the Gospel?

The answer is in John 10:26, John 6:64-65, John 17:2, and Acts of the Apostles 13:48, among many others.

May God bless you abundantly.

Are you conflating faith and salvation?

 

[Revmitchell]

I think we'll have to disagree, Mark.
One thing I don't understand is, how I lost you.
I very methodically laid it out with Scriptural support, and you still disagree.

I can tell you how. You make use of scripture verses and make a claim that they say things they do not. You methodically laid out a case for that which scripture does not support. Faith is not a gift salvation is. We need to be careful not to conflate those two.

 

[Dave G]

Are you conflating faith and salvation?

Not that I am aware of.

To me, "salvation" is what God does with a man or woman, by granting them His favor and deciding to keep them for a personal relationship with Him through His Spirit... rather than casting them into Hell, where we all belong.

"Faith" is the deep and abiding trust in God that one of His children has.
It is timeless, and though it may "wax and wane" on the surface, in a genuine believer it is always there, through thick and thin.

Unlike belief, which is an initial thing or a continuous thing, it is separate, but not detached, from faith.
Belief, to me, is the act of approval...knowing something is true and agreeing with it.

Faith, on the other hand, is not only knowing something is true, but clinging to that truth without ever letting go.

Also, salvation and eternal life are not the same thing to me...
Eternal life is to know God and his Son ( John 17:2 ), while salvation encompasses more than that...it includes eternal life, escape from Hell, the eternal favor and love of God and many other things.
See my above.

 

[Dave G]

I can tell you how. You make use of scripture verses and make a claim that they say things they do not. You methodically laid out a case for that which scripture does not support

Then I'd appreciate your pointing out how I am mistaken, by telling me what those Scriptures mean to you, and telling me what they say in your own words.
My standard practice is to lay out the words literally and grammatically, except in passages that I know are to be taken allegorically or figuratively, which are few.
I also feel that I am careful to make sure that my understanding of them agrees with other Scriptures that say the same or similar things.

How you do it is ultimately up to you.

Any verse or group of verses should serve to make your point.
For example, please explain your view of one or all of the following:

Hebrews 11:1
Galatians 5:22-23
James 1:18
Romans 1:16 <--- Already done, we disagree.
Romans 10:17 <---- Already done, we disagree.
Jude 1:3
Titus 1:1
2 Thessalonians 3:2
Hebrews 12:2

I look forward to your reply, sir.

 

[Dave G]

Faith is not a gift salvation is. We need to be careful not to conflate those two.

Respectfully,
I'll stand by my usage of Ephesians 2:8...I see faith as the gift, it being the nearest noun to the word, "that", in, "that not of yourselves" meaning, "that not originating or from yourselves".
Since I see it saying we are saved by grace through faith, then either the gift of God is faith, or "saved by grace through faith"...the entire phrase.

I tend to go with the former, because if it were not a miraculous gift, then it would not characterize the Lord's faith in His Father when He was on the cross, suffering for my sins and thinking He had been abandoned by His Father.

A miraculous faith, authored and finished on my behalf both in His earthly life, and on the cross, and presented to me as a gift.
That is the "faith of God's elect"...the faith "of Christ"...something far beyond mere human "faith", in that, it doesn't ever stop trusting in God for anything, and accompanies the believer even to his or her death;
Ever trusting and never forsaking God, like Job.
Like David.
Like Samson.
Like everyone in Hebrews 11.

Romantic?
No, practical and very amazing.
A gift that keeps on giving, and enables men like David to write things ( inspired of the Lord, of course ) from the point of view of personal experiences that are true...like many of the Psalms.

In recent times, I'm reminded of George Mueller and his great faith in a God that provides for every need, even without asking George's fellow man for a dime.

 

[Revmitchell]

I'd like to post Hebrews 4:12 for the reader, if I may:

" For the word of God [is] quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and [is] a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart."

I think we both agree that this is the word of God, and that it means what it says.
Where I think we don't agree, is how every word of God, regarding the subject, can be brought to bear on this verse.
Everything that His word has to say on the subject, should be consulted and believed to arrive at a "composite picture" and a fully informed view of what exactly "saving faith" really is.
While God's word is powerful, I see that the power is only "fueled" in conjunction with the Spirit's working ( or not working ) in a "target" person.

This is why I see that His words do not penetrate people's hearts:

" For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard [it]." ( Hebrews 4:2 )

So, the word itself has no profit, unless it is mixed with faith.
Now, here's my question:

If faith comes by hearing ( and we know that it does ), and hearing by the word of God, why doesn't everyone have "saving faith"?
From my perspective, there are two choices...either we can assume that man's will has something to do with it, or, we can consult God's word for the answers.

I reject your premise. It is not either or. This is known as the black and white fallacy which is a logical fallacy. We should avoid these in these discussions.

God designed the plan for which He would save man. (Ephesians 1:4) That plan was that Jesus would come to earth, live as a man, remain sinless, be the perfect sacrifice for an imperfect creation, and be resurrected.(John 3:16) God designed this plan that we are to put our faith in that for our salvation. (John 1:13)

According to scripture we did not design that plan God did. God's plan is that we would be sent the gospel, we would hear the gospel, and it has the ability to provide us the faith for salvation. (Romans 10:13-17; Romans 1:16; James 1:18) When we believe and repent then God will save us, indwell us, give us the promise of future redemption. (Romans 10:9-10; Hebrews 7:25; John 1:12; 3:16; 2 Peter 3:9)

Because faith is a fruit of the Spirit ( Galatians 5:22-23 ), which can only manifest itself in someone who is already born again ( Romans 8:9, Ephesians 1:13 ), then faith accompanies being born again, it does not precede it.

So, not only is faith a gift ( Ephesians 2:8 ), it is also a fruit of the Spirit and not the means, but the evidence ( Hebrews 11:1 ) of the new birth.

Faith is not a gift salvation is. You make faith the context in which it is not. Salvation is the context. Faith is not a fruit of the Spirit "faithfulness" is a fruit of the Spirit. I am disappointed in your changing scripture here. Not good.

Without the word of God, faith does not come..

On this we agree

.but even with the word of God, faith only comes to those who have the Spirit.

Therefore, faith and belief are two different things.

One does not lead to the other.