Where Does Faith Come From II

That is your presupposition. It interferes with your ability to see the plain reading of scripture.[/QUOTE]
Another non answer avoiding the issue.

 

I'd like to post Hebrews 4:12 for the reader, if I may:

" For the word of God [is] quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and [is] a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart."

I think we both agree that this is the word of God, and that it means what it says.
Where I think we don't agree, is how every word of God, regarding the subject, can be brought to bear on this verse.
Everything that His word has to say on the subject, should be consulted and believed to arrive at a "composite picture" and a fully informed view of what exactly "saving faith" really is.
While God's word is powerful, I see that the power is only "fueled" in conjunction with the Spirit's working ( or not working ) in a "target" person.

This is why I see that His words do not penetrate people's hearts:

" For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard [it]." ( Hebrews 4:2 )

So, the word itself has no profit, unless it is mixed with faith.
Now, here's my question:

If faith comes by hearing ( and we know that it does ), and hearing by the word of God, why doesn't everyone have "saving faith"?
From my perspective, there are two choices...either we can assume that man's will has something to do with it, or, we can consult God's word for the answers.

I have, and this is what I have come up with:

Because faith is a fruit of the Spirit ( Galatians 5:22-23 ), which can only manifest itself in someone who is already born again ( Romans 8:9, Ephesians 1:13 ), then faith accompanies being born again, it does not precede it.

So, not only is faith a gift ( Ephesians 2:8 ), it is also a fruit of the Spirit and not the means, but the evidence ( Hebrews 11:1 ) of the new birth.

Without the word of God, faith does not come...but even with the word of God, faith only comes to those who have the Spirit.
Therefore, faith and belief are two different things.

 

Hi Dave;
It is my opinion that most of the lost are kept too busy to pay any attention to God's word.
MB

 

But, where do you go for that opinion...do you make a guess based on what seems right, or can you put your finger on something God, who is our only authority, ( and the only One we should be trusting, Proverbs 3:5-7 ) has to say on the subject?

 

This does not make sense to most people. We know the Spirit had men write the word. The word written is not magical. It needs the Spirit to allow, or enable a person to welcome it.

 

What about Hebrews 4:2?

 

I think we'll have to disagree, Mark.
One thing I don't understand is, how I lost you.
I very methodically laid it out with Scriptural support, and you still disagree.

I'll have to live with that.

However, would you at least be willing to engage one of my posts, perhaps #73, and point out how you believe that my usage of the Scriptures is incorrect?

 

No, I saw them, but I'll address those passages more thoroughly, if only to be as helpful as I can:
" For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek." ( Romans 1:16 )

Here I see that the Gospel of Christ is the power of God...to the Roman believers.
But the Gospel itself ( the words ) are not the power of God, it is the power of God unto salvation for someone...everyone that believeth.
It represents or heralds the power of God.

It is powerful, but only to a certain group.

The same can be said in 1 Corinthians 1:18.
To some it is foolishness, and to some, like the believer, it is ( or represents ) the power of God.

In other words, I see you misunderstanding, from my perspective, what this verse actually states.
If I also may point out, it appears that you focus on the words, "it is the power of God", and the other words, like, "unto salvation to everyone that believeth", go unnoticed.

I hope I'm in error, because as believers, I trust that every word should be important ( Matthew 4:4, Luke 4:4 ).

 

Romans 10:17:

" So then faith [cometh] by hearing, and hearing by the word of God."

Indeed, faith does come by "hearing" and hearing by the word of God.
Faith comes to those who have "ears to hear" ( Matthew 11:15 ), and only those who have "ears to hear".

Once again, this agrees with what I see in 1 Corinthians 2:6-16.
The "natural" man ( the unregenerate, not-born-again person ) cannot and will not be able to have faith.
Not only because it is a fruit of the Spirit ( Galatians 5:22-23 ), but because there are times when the Gospel gets preached, and it does not profit people because it is not mixed with faith in them that hear it ( Hebrews 4:2 ).

That is what I see when I put all the pieces together.

 

James 1:18:

" Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures."

I agree.
Of God's will He "begat" ( gave birth ) to the believer, spiritually.

He did not beget the unbeliever.
So, what does it take, in Scripture, for God to "beget" someone with His word?

I see that it takes His choice to do so, which is what the verse above is stating..."of His own will begat He us".
Not of our will ( John 1:13 ).

I also see that He has to do it...not the word alone.
He "begets" with the word...apart from the Holy Spirit's involvement, there is no "begetting".

 

No, that is not correct. The fool did not say that. In that passage the fool said "There is no God." The rest was not said by the fool.

 

Not that I am aware of.

To me, "salvation" is what God does with a man or woman, by granting them His favor and deciding to keep them for a personal relationship with Him through His Spirit... rather than casting them into Hell, where we all belong.

"Faith" is the deep and abiding trust in God that one of His children has.
It is timeless, and though it may "wax and wane" on the surface, in a genuine believer it is always there, through thick and thin.

Unlike belief, which is an initial thing or a continuous thing, it is separate, but not detached, from faith.
Belief, to me, is the act of approval...knowing something is true and agreeing with it.

Faith, on the other hand, is not only knowing something is true, but clinging to that truth without ever letting go.

Also, salvation and eternal life are not the same thing to me...
Eternal life is to know God and his Son ( John 17:2 ), while salvation encompasses more than that...it includes eternal life, escape from Hell, the eternal favor and love of God and many other things.
See my above.

 

Then I'd appreciate your pointing out how I am mistaken, by telling me what those Scriptures mean to you, and telling me what they say in your own words.
My standard practice is to lay out the words literally and grammatically, except in passages that I know are to be taken allegorically or figuratively, which are few.
I also feel that I am careful to make sure that my understanding of them agrees with other Scriptures that say the same or similar things.

How you do it is ultimately up to you.

Any verse or group of verses should serve to make your point.
For example, please explain your view of one or all of the following:

Hebrews 11:1
Galatians 5:22-23
James 1:18
Romans 1:16 <--- Already done, we disagree.
Romans 10:17 <---- Already done, we disagree.
Jude 1:3
Titus 1:1
2 Thessalonians 3:2
Hebrews 12:2

I look forward to your reply, sir.

 

Respectfully,
I'll stand by my usage of Ephesians 2:8...I see faith as the gift, it being the nearest noun to the word, "that", in, "that not of yourselves" meaning, "that not originating or from yourselves".
Since I see it saying we are saved by grace through faith, then either the gift of God is faith, or "saved by grace through faith"...the entire phrase.

I tend to go with the former, because if it were not a miraculous gift, then it would not characterize the Lord's faith in His Father when He was on the cross, suffering for my sins and thinking He had been abandoned by His Father.

A miraculous faith, authored and finished on my behalf both in His earthly life, and on the cross, and presented to me as a gift.
That is the "faith of God's elect"...the faith "of Christ"...something far beyond mere human "faith", in that, it doesn't ever stop trusting in God for anything, and accompanies the believer even to his or her death;
Ever trusting and never forsaking God, like Job.
Like David.
Like Samson.
Like everyone in Hebrews 11.

Romantic?
No, practical and very amazing.
A gift that keeps on giving, and enables men like David to write things ( inspired of the Lord, of course ) from the point of view of personal experiences that are true...like many of the Psalms.

In recent times, I'm reminded of George Mueller and his great faith in a God that provides for every need, even without asking George's fellow man for a dime.