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Is salvation conditional on choosing to believe and follow Gods Word?

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by 3rdAngel, Aug 18, 2019.

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  1. 3rdAngel

    3rdAngel Member

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    Nope that it simply wrong and here is why. It is God's Word not mine says;

    MATTHEW 13:20-21 [20], But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that hears the word, and immediately with joy receives it; [21], Yet has he not root in himself, but ENDURES FOR A WHILE: BUT WHEN TRIBULATION OR PERSECUTION ARISES BECAUSE OF THE WORD, BY AND BY HE IS OFFENDED .

    Second seed; in stony places: receives the Word of God and rejoices and ENDURES FOR A WHILE BUT FALLS AWAY because of tribulation and persecution, because they did not receive a LOVE OF THE TRUTH (no root) that they might be saved *2 THESSALONIANS 2:1-12. What ever why you want to look at this scripture brother it only supports what is being shared with you and that is you can RECEIVE GOD'S WORD and FALL AWAY from believing and following it. These are Gods' Word not mine.

    ............

    Similar thoughts in the scriptures provided here showing that Believers can fall away from the truth of God's Word back to a life of sin and not be saved...

    2 THESSALONIANS 2:1-13
    [1], Now WE (believers) beseech you, BROTHERS (believers), by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together to him,
    [2], THAT YOU (believers) BE NOT SOON SHAKEN IN MIND OR BE TROUBLED, NEITHER BY SPIRIT OF BY WORDNOR BY LETTER AS FROM US (believers) AS THE DAY OF THE LORD IS AT HAND.

    Note the context here is to fellow believers (brothers; us; we) with a WARNING given not to be DECEIVED, SHAKEN IN MIND (depart the faith) because they day of the Lord is at hand. This is the context of the topic of discussion. Paul continues...

    [3], LET NO MAN DECEIVE YOU (brothers; believers) BY ANY MEANS: FOR THAT DAY (2nd coming) SHALL NOT COME EXCEPT THERE BE A FALLING AWAY FIRST (of believers), and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition.

    Note before the 2nd coming of the Lord there WILL BE a FALLING AWAY of BELIEVERS before the antichrist is revealed...

    [4], Who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sits in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.
    [5], Remember you not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
    [6], And now you know what withholds that he might be revealed in his time.
    [7], For the mystery of iniquity does already work: only he who now lets will let, until he be taken out of the way.
    [8], And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
    [9], Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
    [10], And with all delusion of unrighteousness IN THEM (fallen believers) THAT PERISH; BECAUSE THEY RECEIVED NOT THE LOVE OF THE TRUTH, THAT THEY MIGHT BE SAVED.

    Note: the FALLING AWAY described in v3 is because those who fell away from God's Word (brothers fellow believers) were SHAKEN IN MIND v2 and were DECEIVED v3 because they received not the love of the truth v10.

    [11], And for this cause God shall send THEM (fallen believers) strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

    Note: because these believers had the truth but did not love of the truth (put it before everything in their life) v11, they were shaken in mind v2, became deceived v3, had fallen away from believing and following God's Word v3 and for this cause God let them follow strong delusions to believe a lie v11 because they did not love the truth more than the things of the world v10.

    [12], That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

    Note: the end result of all those who once believed but did not love the truth of God's Word more than the things of the world and choose to turn away from believing the truth of God's Word? They are to be damned, they lose their salvation because they were not born again to love and had pleasure in sin (unrighteousness) *1 JOHN 5:17.

    [13], But WE are bound to give thanks always to God FOR YOU BROTHERS beloved of the Lord, because God has from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth

    Note: part of the closing statement here who is the being spoken to; Believers or Unbelievers? "FOR YOU BROTHERS" is in reference to those who are BELIEVERS those who did not receive the love of the truth v10 had FALLEN AWAY from the faith v3 because they were SHAKEN IN MIND v2 and DECEIVED v10 because they had pleasure in UNRIGHTEOUSNESS v12 and did not love the truth v10 God sent them strong delusions that they might be damned v12

    .............

    Similar thoughts in the scriptures provided here showing that Believers can fall away from the truth of God's Word back to a life of sin and not be saved...

    HEBREWS 6:4-8 [4], For it is impossible for those WHO WERE ONCE ENLIGHTENED, and HAVE TASTED THE HEAVENLY GIFT, and WERE MADE PARTAKERS OF THE HOLY GHOST, [5], And have TASTED THE GOOD WORD OF GOD, and THE POWERS OF THE WORLD TO COME,

    Who are we talking about here; BELIEVERS of UNBELIEVERS? Were these BELIEVERS Born again christians

    1. Having been enlightened v4;
    2. Having tasted of the Heavenly gift v4;
    3. Having been made partakers of the Holy Ghost v5;
    4. Having tasted of the good Word of God v4;
    5. Having tasted of the power of the world to come v5

    [6], IF THEY (believers) SHALL FALL AWAY, to renew them again to repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh and put him to an open shame.

    Yep, BELIEVERS having fallen away from the HEAVENLY gift back into sin..

    [7], For the earth which drinks in the rain that comes oft on it, and brings forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receives blessing from God:
    [8], But that which bears thorns and briers is rejected, and is near to cursing; WHOS END IS TO BE BURNED.

    Yep thier end is to be burned does not sound like they will be going into God's Kingdom not having any REPENTANCE for sin (v6).

    and again more WARNINGS from God's Word to believers...

    HEBREWS 10:26-27 [26], FOR IF WE (believers) SIN WILLFULLY AFTER THAT WE RECEIVE A KNOWLEDGE OF THE TRUTH, THERE REMAINS NO MORE SACRIFICE FOR SINS, [27], But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

    Yep seems like those who CONTINUE in KNOWN UNREPENTANT SIN are God's Adversaries who will receive the judgments of God. Do you think these people will enter into God's Kingdom?

    Christ's Sheep are those who hear, beleive and follow God's Word always in the present tense. God's Word teaches a born again believer can fall away from the faith and grieve God's Spirit *EPHESIANS 4:30; 1 THESSALONIANS 5:19 not me. These are God's Word not mine *HEBREWS 6:4-8; HEBREWS 10:31-36; 2 THESSALONIANS 2:1-13. There is no such thing as once saved always saved. This teaching is not biblical and has its foundation in the first lie spoken to Eve in the garden of Eden which caused the fall of mankind and continues to do so today *GENESIS 3:1-5.

    Well thank you. I think you have spoken very well though for yourself and what you believe. Thank you for sharing with us.
     
    #121 3rdAngel, Aug 26, 2019
  2. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    I answered this already, why ask again. Remaining faithful to the end proves salvation, it does not provide salvation.

    All the "loss of salvation" passages either address people who were never saved, or the passage addresses the loss of rewards due to not building on the foundation of Christ with a reconciliation ministry.

    And please stop copy and pasting massive verbiage that has already been rebutted.

    God puts us into Christ and we have no power to leave.
     
    #122 Van, Aug 26, 2019
  3. 3rdAngel

    3rdAngel Member

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    Well that is not true.

    Now let's see what God's Word says...

    MATTHEW 13:20-21 [20], But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that hears the word, and immediately with joy receives it; [21], Yet has he not root in himself, but ENDURES FOR A WHILE: BUT WHEN TRIBULATION OR PERSECUTION ARISES BECAUSE OF THE WORD, BY AND BY HE IS OFFENDED.

    1. Received (believed) God's Word and rejoyced
    2. Endured for a while beliving and following God's Word
    3. Fell away when tribulation and persecution arose...

    .........

    Similar thoughts in the scriptures provided here showing that Believers can fall away from the truth of God's Word back to a life of sin and not be saved...

    HEBREWS 6:4-8 [4], For it is impossible for those WHO WERE ONCE ENLIGHTENED, and HAVE TASTED THE HEAVENLY GIFT, and WERE MADE PARTAKERS OF THE HOLY GHOST, [5], And have TASTED THE GOOD WORD OF GOD, and THE POWERS OF THE WORLD TO COME,

    Who are we talking about here; BELIEVERS of UNBELIEVERS? Were these BELIEVERS Born again christians

    1. Having been enlightened v4;
    2. Having tasted of the Heavenly gift v4;
    3. Having been made partakers of the Holy Ghost v5;
    4. Having tasted of the good Word of God v4;
    5. Having tasted of the power of the world to come v5

    [6], IF THEY (believers) SHALL FALL AWAY, to renew them again to repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh and put him to an open shame.

    Yep, BELIEVERS having fallen away from the HEAVENLY gift back into sin..

    and again more WARNINGS from God's Word to believers...

    HEBREWS 10:26-27 [26], FOR IF WE (believers) SIN WILLFULLY AFTER THAT WE RECEIVE A KNOWLEDGE OF THE TRUTH, THERE REMAINS NO MORE SACRIFICE FOR SINS, [27], But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

    Yep seems like those who CONTINUE in KNOWN UNREPENTANT SIN are God's Adversaries who will receive the judgments of God. Do you think these people will enter into God's Kingdom having once believed and then fall away from believing and following God's Word?

    Seems God's Word disagrees with you.
     
    #123 3rdAngel, Aug 26, 2019
  4. utilyan

    utilyan Well-Known Member
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    Yeah or the exact words of those free willers:
    John 1

    11He came to His own, and those who were His own did not receive Him. 12But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name,


    God can have a purpose for you, clearly offered.

    Luke 7

    30But the Pharisees and the lawyers rejected God’s purpose for themselves, not having been baptized by John.

    God had a purpose for them. Something GOD wanted for them, AND THEY REJECT IT.

    Whereas GOD the Calvin, would say they are still fulfilling their purpose all a long is being hell bound.

    You won't be hearing a Calvinist preach that verse anytime soon.


    Some still don't know if God wants them to stop sinning.
     
    #124 utilyan, Aug 27, 2019
  5. 1689Dave

    1689Dave Well-Known Member

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    Offer? You need to believe (be saved according to Jesus) before you would ever consider taking up an offer...........
     
    #125 1689Dave, Aug 27, 2019
  6. utilyan

    utilyan Well-Known Member
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    John 3

    16“For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

    He could have wrote that those who have eternal life would believe.

    But being God he doesn't teach falsehood.


    You are wrong, now if you don't believe I had a choice in saying so.....Then you are only arguing with God.
     
    #126 utilyan, Aug 27, 2019
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  7. 1689Dave

    1689Dave Well-Known Member

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    You must already believe (be saved according to Jesus) or you would not "accept" anything.
     
    #127 1689Dave, Aug 27, 2019
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  8. utilyan

    utilyan Well-Known Member
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    John 20

    31but these have been written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing you may have life in His name.

    I got scripture to back me up. Where is yours?

    Remember I got no choice in telling you all this, So why is God throwing this in your face?
     
    #128 utilyan, Aug 27, 2019
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  9. 1689Dave

    1689Dave Well-Known Member

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    Only God knows. I have plenty of scripture but honestly, doesn't a person believe something is worth choosing before they choose it?
     
    #129 1689Dave, Aug 27, 2019
  10. utilyan

    utilyan Well-Known Member
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    Not always. Some folks are not sincere, dishonest, crowd pleasers easily swayed by peer pressure.

    Jeremiah 4

    14Wash your heart from evil, O Jerusalem,
    That you may be saved.
    How long will your wicked thoughts
    Lodge within you?

    Someone better tell God the Calvin its exactly as long as he planned for them.



    Dave if the shoe was on the other foot and I believed you had NO CHOICE in what you believe and God just authors who believes and who doesn't, I would be a COMPLETE IDIOT to debate or argue this with you. All it takes is lick of common sense for me to realize I don't need to talk to you at all as you are only following your limited programming. I don't complain to you. I complain to God, Dear lord can you zap belief in my robot buddy here thanks. Dear lord zap this one as buddy, gift me this soul.

    Think about it. YOU literally believe that I DON't Believe you because God has not determined for me to believe you and yet you debate me? thats ridiculous.

    I don't believe you, GOD WILLS IT. Contemplate that for 5 minutes or Maybe an HOUR.

    Your entire debate is I can't even change my mind unless God wills it. So why waste your time with me?

    Indeed It would take an act of God for me to believe something so ridiculous.

    If I were back in your shoes again..... Look at all these potential reprobates who don't believe as I do, maybe I can explain to them....maybe I , I I I.......What happen to only God can fix this!?!?

    You don't even believe what you claim to believe.

    If I believed your story, I'd be on my knees begging that monster to spare my friends family, everyone on earth.
     
    #130 utilyan, Aug 27, 2019
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  11. 1689Dave

    1689Dave Well-Known Member

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    Here's the peril you are in. If Calvin was right about God, you hate him passionately and give your idol his name. And churches today are packed with God hating idol worshippers. This is the peril we are looking at.
     
    #131 1689Dave, Aug 27, 2019
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  12. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Yet another copy and paste pile of verbiage.
    Since God alone puts us into Christ, only God alone could take us out, and He has promised never to do that. You have not addressed this truth from God's word.
     
    #132 Van, Aug 27, 2019
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  13. utilyan

    utilyan Well-Known Member
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    If I hated God Passionately , hatred still has too much caring. I instead would be apathetic and not care for God. My "peril" even destruction would be my sweet joy anyways. Being evil i would applaud all the mercy withheld, I hate mercy most of all.

    Being evil I would take absolute VICTORY in God having to hate anyone at all. Being evil is all about POWER and TERRORISM. For God to take delight in the eternal torture of just ONE SOUL, that is the utter complete victory of EVIL.


    When Evil thinks of destroying enemies its about them suffering, being oppressed, stomped on, violence.
    When Good destroys enemies they bring a lost brother back to life.

    If I am the Devil why would you think my goals are anything like God's? If I am the Devil i'd be 100% happy with Calvinist idea of God, it would be the absolute glee to tell that soul GOD NEVER LOVED YOU, He always hated you, from the foundation of creation he always hated you and is his great glory that you will be tortured forever

    The absolute whole point of EVIL is it is US vs THEM. Where Good was US for US.
     
    #133 utilyan, Aug 27, 2019
  14. 1689Dave

    1689Dave Well-Known Member

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    People do good all the time, even JW's and Mormons.
     
    #134 1689Dave, Aug 27, 2019
  15. 3rdAngel

    3rdAngel Member

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    Not really, I have copied and pasted the scriptures from God's Word that disagree with you because you keep repeating yourself without addressing my posts and the scripture in them that have only been sent in love as a help to you. These are God's Word's not mine and ignoring God's Word does not make it dissappear. In response you provide your own words to argue with God's.

    Brother Van, honestly, does it worry you that you are not able to address the scriptures in the posts sent to you that disagree with you? It should. Only God's Word it true and we should believe and follow it *ROMANS 3:4: ACTS 5:29. God's Word does not teach what you do.

    Once saved always saved is a false gospel first taught by the father of lies in the garden of Eden to Eve *GENESIS 3:1-5 when it was said you can eat of the forbidden fruit and you will not surely die. God's Word teaches that our salvation is condtional on believing and following what God says. Said in all respect and love, I know who I believe and follow and it is not you.

    God's Sheep hear His Voice (the Word). Those who are not do not hear and do not follow. Sin (breaking God's commandments) is the difference between the children of God and the children of the devil *1 JOHN 3:6-10

    Hope this is helpful
     
    #135 3rdAngel, Aug 27, 2019
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  16. MB

    MB Well-Known Member

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    Are you making the claim that you don't sin? There is nothing in scripture that claims we must continue to follow God's word to be saved. What blows this out of the water is Eph 2:8-9
    Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
    Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
    To accurately follow God's word is work indeed
    MB
     
    #136 MB, Aug 27, 2019
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  17. 3rdAngel

    3rdAngel Member

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    We are all sinners in need of a Saviour *ROMANS 3:9-10; 23; MATTHEW 9:12-13. All I can do without JESUS is sin *MATTHEW 15:1-10 but with him all things *PHILIPPIANS 4:13; PHILIPPIANS 2:13; 1 JOHN 3:6; MATTHEW 15:1-10.
    The Good news of the Gospel of JESUS Christ is that we have a Saviour to save us from our sins. Salvation is from sin, not to continue to (knowingly) sin *JOHN 8:31-36; ROMANS 8:1-4; ROMANS 3:31. If you are still in your (known) sins than you need to be born again as this is the difference between the children of God and the children of the devil *1 JOHN 3:3-10; 1 JOHN 2:1-4. Those who are the children of God do not practice (known) sin (breaking God's commandments) and those who are the children of the devil do. Do you know the difference between known sin and unknown sin *JAMES 4:17; ACTS 17:30-31? Unless we are born again through the Spirit to love we cannot enter into God's Kingdom *JOHN 3:3-8; MATTHEW 22:36-40; JOHN 14:15. If we continue in known unrepentant sin we will die *ROMANS 8:13 because all doing so reject the gift of God's dear son *ROMANS 6:23; HEBREWS 10:26-27. This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptation that Christ JESUS came into the world to save sinners of whom I am chief *1 TIMOTHY 1:15. Your salvation is here. God holds it out to you. It is up to you to take it as it is God's gift to you. We receive it the moment we believe His Word *JOHN 3:15-21. All things are possible to those who believe *MARK 9:23. The victory that overcomes the world is our faith *1 JOHN 5:4, Walk in the Spirit (Word) through faith and you will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh *GALATIANS 5:16
    The whole bible from GENESIS to REVELATIONS shows that our salvation is condtional on believing and following God's Word. Some of these scriptures are shown in this OP which I gather you did not read or you would not have posted what you have written here. EPHESIANS 2:8-9 only supports the scriptures provided here in the OP and that is that salavtion is conditional on believing and following God's Word through faith *JOHN 3:15-21. To follow God's Word is God's work in all those who believe His Word and walk in His Spirit *PHILIPPIANS 4:13; PHILIPPIANS 2:13; 1 JOHN 3:6; MATTHEW 15:1-10; GALATIANS 5:16. His burden is easy and his yoke is light *MATTHEW 11:29-30.

    God bless.
     
    #137 3rdAngel, Aug 27, 2019
    Last edited: Aug 27, 2019
  18. MB

    MB Well-Known Member

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    3rd angel
    If you didn't know you sinned which is literally impossible because if you didn't know it was sin then God would have to be a liar. The Law is written on our hearts. The most evil person on earth knows when he does something wrong. He may relish it yet inside yet he knows it's wrong. It's called conscience. We all have one no matter what Physiologist say. Please explain how you can sin and not know it?

    Did you know that if you sin one little sin you have become guilty of them all.
    Did you know Paul had a sin he committed he could not get rid of. He wrote;

    2Co 12:6 For though I would desire to glory, I shall not be a fool; for I will say the truth: but now I forbear, lest any man should think of me above that which he seeth me to be, or that he heareth of me.
    2Co_12:7 And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.
    2Co 12:8 For this thing I besought the Lord thrice, that it might depart from me.
    2Co 12:9 And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.
    John wrote;
    Joh 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
    Joh 10:29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
    Joh 10:30 I and my Father are one.
    Joh_10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

    No one can over power God but when you say we cannot live in sin you are wrong. Every man sins and it is usually repeat sins. Sure we ask for forgiveness this is called dying daily. Never the less we are not under the Law and we do not live by the law either. We live by the saving power of Jesus Christ and he is one with the Father
    This does not mean we should go out and sin all we wish to just because we are covered by His wonderful Grace. We will not go to hell but we will suffer loss of rewards.
    MB
     
    #138 MB, Aug 27, 2019
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  19. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    I am a Reformed Baptist, who thinks that the 1689 Baptist Confession does a good job detailing doctrines of scriptures, so would say that him and I do not see agreement on this topic at all!
     
    #139 Yeshua1, Aug 27, 2019
  20. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Paul in Romans 8 is inspired scripture, and He agrees with eternal security of the true saints!
     
    #140 Yeshua1, Aug 27, 2019
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