1689Dave
Well-Known Member
You are turning grace into law by reading free will into this. It is a trait of those whom God saves.
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Is salvation conditional on choosing to believe and follow Gods Word?
- Thread starter 3rdAngel
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You guys always get the context of that passage wrong. In that chapter Paul is comparing worldly wisdom to godly wisdom. Chapter two and including v. 14 is not divorced from chapter one. Paul is talking to believers who are allowing contentions between them and Paul is saying not to allow this. Because of this contention Paul makes the comparison. The natural man is not a lost unbeliever but someone who is looking at things through the lens of worldly wisdom.
3rdAngel
Member
Here you go again making up false statement you cannot prove through the scriptures. Yet it is God's Word that says...
JOHN 3:15-21 [15], That WHOEVER BELIEVES (BELIEVING; Present tense) IN HIM SHOULD NOT PERISH BUT HAVE EVERLASTING LIFE [16], For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, THAT WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM SHOULD NOT PERISH BUT HAVE EVERLASTING LIFE. [17], For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
wait for it...
[18], HE THAT BELIEVES ON HIM IS NOT CONDEMNED; BUT HE THAT BELIEVES NOT IS CONDEMNED ALREADY BECUASE HE HAS NOT BELIEVED ON THE NAME OF THE ONLY BEGOTTEN SON OF GOD.
[19], And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
[20], For every one that does evil hates the light, neither comes to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
[21], But he that does truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are worked in God.
God gives us the free will and choice to believe or not believe his Word. If we believe his Word he saves us from our sins. If we choose not to believe God's Word we stay in our sins and are condemned because we do not believe in the Word of God which is God's gift to save us from our sins.
Let's see some more...
JOSHUA 24:15 And IF (conditional) it seem evil to you to serve the Lord, CHOOSE YOU THIS DAY WHO YOU WILL SERVE; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.
DEUTERONOMY 30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, [that] I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore CHOOSE LIFE THAT BOTH YOU AND YOUR SEED MAY LIVE.
Sorry brother God's Word disagrees with you. We all have free will to believe or not believe God's Word. God tells us to CHOOSE this day who you will serve... It is our faith however in Gods Word that brings us his Spirit that works in us to will and to do of His own good pleasure.
Hope this is helpful and hope you can receive the in the Spirit it was given (love)
3rdAngel
Member
Yep I tried to explain this to him in the previous post. Perhaps your words may be more helpful. Thanks for sharing Mitch
God bless
1689Dave
Well-Known Member
You are using OT Law which depended on free will to define the New Covenant of grace that replaced it.
1689Dave
Well-Known Member
“For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.” 1 Corinthians 1:18 (NASB95)
Unless you comment on the verses you post it means nothing in these conversations other than it supports my position.
1689Dave
Well-Known Member
“For to you it has been granted for Christ’s sake, not only to believe in Him, but also to suffer for His sake,” Philippians 1:29 (NASB95)
1) The present tense "John 3:16" believing into Him, is completed when God puts the individual into Christ.
2) Matthew 13, second and third soils are not said to be saved. And in Matthew 7, when Jesus says depart from Me, He does not say I knew you briefly, but you did not keep by Word, He says I never knew you.
3) God credits our faith (or not) as righteousness, Romans 4:4-5, 24, and therefore God's action determines saving faith. Salvation does not depend on the one who wills to be saved, Romans 9:16.
4) I will repeat, 2 Thessalonians is addressing chosen believers, not professing believers or unbelievers.
5) Your assertion that saving faith includes following all scripture is without merit. Saving faith is based on the gospel of Christ. After we are saved, all scripture provides us with guidance for godly living and service to Christ.
Bottom line, since it is God alone who sets us apart in Christ, we through sinful behavior, have no power to set ourselves back outside of Christ. OSAS
3rdAngel
Member
Your confused brother as the same Old Testament law is the same law in the New Testament that gives us the knowledge of what sin is when broken *ROMANS 3:20; 1 JOHN 3:4; ROMANS 7:7 and leads us to Chrsit that we might be forgiven through faith *GALATIANS 3:22-25. If you have no law you have no knowledge of what sin is. If you do not know what sin is you have do not know you are a sinner in need of a Saviour. If you have no Saviour you have no salvation. If you have no salvation you are lost because you are still in your sins.
What do you think these scriptures mean?
MATTHEW 9:12-13 [12], But when Jesus heard that, he said to them, They that be whole need not a physician, but they that are sick. [13], But go you and learn what that means, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.
If you have no law how do you know what sin is?
1 JOHN 3:4 [4], Whoever commits sin transgresses also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
Read the scriptures in the OP. Everything we have in the NEW Testament comes from the OLD Testament scriptures. In the days of Jesus and the disciples the OLD Testament was their bible. Together both the OLD and NEW Testament scriptures make up the two great witnesses of the Word of God.
The Greek Word used for IF is the conditional particle of choice or to choose applied by free ...
“IF” (Greek) *G1437; אםἐάν; ean; a conditional particle; in case that, provided, etc.; often used in connection with other particles to denote indefiniteness or uncertainty : - before, but, except, (and) if, (if) so, (what-, whither-) soever, though, when (-soever), whether (or), to whom, [who-] so (-ever)., See G3361.
God's forgiveness is conditional...
I JOHN 1:9 [9], IF (conditional if we choose to; free will) we confess our sins, he is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
MATTHEW 6:14-15 [14], For IF (conditional if we choose to; free will) you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you: [15], But IF (conditional) you forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.
Being a disciple we must follow what Jesus says...
MATTHEW 16:24 Then said Jesus to his disciples, IF (conditional if we choose to; free will) any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.
Conditons for inheriting eternal life...
MATTHEW 19:16-19 [16], And, behold, one came and said to him, Good Master, what good thing shall I DO, that I may have eternal life? [17], And he said to him, Why call you me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but IF (conditional if we choose to; free will) you will enter into life, keep the commandments. [18], He said to him, Which? Jesus said, You shall do no murder, You shall not commit adultery, You shall not steal, You shall not bear false witness, [19], Honor your father and your mother: and, You shall love your neighbor as yourself.
JOHN 6:51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: IF (conditional if we choose to; free will) any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.
To many more in the OP to list here...
I choose to believe God's Word. How about you?
1689Dave
Well-Known Member
Free will changes grace into law and presents a false gospel.
“I am amazed that you are so quickly deserting Him who called you by the grace of Christ, for a different gospel;” Galatians 1:6 (NASB95)
3rdAngel
Member
Hello Van nice to see you again. Please find some comments below for your consideration...
MATTHEW 13:18-23 [18], Hear you therefore the parable of the sower.
[19], When any one hears the word of the kingdom, and understands it not, then comes the wicked one, and catches away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.
First seed; Yep someone that does not understand God's Word when they hear it and does not believe has no salvation...
[20], But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that hears the word, and immediately with joy receives it; [21], Yet has he not root in himself, but ENDURES FOR A WHILE: BUT WHEN TRIBULATION OR PERSECUTION ARISES BECAUSE OF THE WORD, BY AND BY HE IS OFFENDED .
Second seed; in stony places: receives the Word of God and rejoices and ENDURES FOR A WHILE BUT FALLS AWAY because of tribulation and persecution, because they did not receive a LOVE OF THE TRUTH (no root) that they might be saved *2 THESSALONIANS 2:1-12. What ever why you want to look at this scripture brother it only supports what is being shared with you and that is you can RECEIVE GOD'S WORD and FALL AWAY from believing and following it. These are Gods' Word not mine.
[22], He also that received seed among the thorns is he that hears the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becomes unfruitful.
Third seed: also receives the Word of God but the cares of the world choke the Word in those who received it and they bare no fruit
[23], But he that received seed into the good ground is he that hears the word, and understands it; which also bears fruit, and brings forth, some an hundred times, some sixty, some thirty.
Fourth seed: Saving faith that believes to the end and produces the fruit of faith which is obedience to God's Word. Sorry brother as you can see in the parable in seed two and three these were believers that received the Word of God and endured for a while but fell away from believing and following God's Word because of tribulation, persecution, and the cares of the world or the deceitfulness of riches.
God's Word says that ALL SCRIPTURE is given by inspiration of God an is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness *2 TIMOTHY 3:16 and ALL THESE THINGS are written for our admonition upon who the ends of the world have come *1 CORINTHIANS 10:11. JESUS says we are to live by EVERY WORD that proceeds out of the mouth of GOD *MATTHEW 4:4. Life only comes by faith in God's WORD and even our faith comes through the Word *ROMANS 10:17. It is the spirit that quickens; the flesh profits nothing: the words that I speak to you, they are spirit, and they are life *JOHN 6:63. If we reject God's Word we reject JESUS who is the living Word *JOHN 1:1-4; 14. It is our faith in Gods' Word that gives us the victory to overcome the World *1 JOHN 5:4. If we do not continue believing and following God's Word we have no salvation *JOHN 8:31-32. Salvation is from sin not to continue in it *JOHN 8:31-36. If we continue in sin we will die *ROMANS 8:13 because those who do so reject the gift of God's dear son *ROMANS 6:23.
Hope this helps.
We are put into Chrsit as we believe his Word *JOHN 3:15-21; JOHN 3:6. JESUS is the Word *JOHN 1:1-4;14
Let's look at what the Word of God says...
MATTHEW 13:18-23 [18], Hear you therefore the parable of the sower.
[19], When any one hears the word of the kingdom, and understands it not, then comes the wicked one, and catches away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.
First seed; Yep someone that does not understand God's Word when they hear it and does not believe has no salvation...
[20], But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that hears the word, and immediately with joy receives it; [21], Yet has he not root in himself, but ENDURES FOR A WHILE: BUT WHEN TRIBULATION OR PERSECUTION ARISES BECAUSE OF THE WORD, BY AND BY HE IS OFFENDED .
Second seed; in stony places: receives the Word of God and rejoices and ENDURES FOR A WHILE BUT FALLS AWAY because of tribulation and persecution, because they did not receive a LOVE OF THE TRUTH (no root) that they might be saved *2 THESSALONIANS 2:1-12. What ever why you want to look at this scripture brother it only supports what is being shared with you and that is you can RECEIVE GOD'S WORD and FALL AWAY from believing and following it. These are Gods' Word not mine.
[22], He also that received seed among the thorns is he that hears the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becomes unfruitful.
Third seed: also receives the Word of God but the cares of the world choke the Word in those who received it and they bare no fruit
[23], But he that received seed into the good ground is he that hears the word, and understands it; which also bears fruit, and brings forth, some an hundred times, some sixty, some thirty.
Fourth seed: Saving faith that believes to the end and produces the fruit of faith which is obedience to God's Word. Sorry brother as you can see in the parable in seed two and three these were believers that received the Word of God and endured for a while but fell away from believing and following God's Word because of tribulation, persecution, and the cares of the world or the deceitfulness of riches.
No one has ever said here that salvation depends on one who wills to be saved. Please do not pretend that they are. We cannot save ourselves as we are all sinners in need of a Saviour. We are saved by grace through faith and not of ourselves, it is a gift of God and not of works lest any man should boast *EPHESIANS 2:8-9.
I have no idea what your point is here as it only support what I have been sharing with you from the beginning. I have never said that 2 THESSALONIANS 13 is addressing professing believers or unbelievers and have always stated that 2 THESSALONIANS 13 is a WARNING TO BELIEVERS not to be decieved, not to be shaken in your faith, not to fall away and depart Gods' Word. The very point I was making to you is that this is a WARNING from God to BELIEVERS not to depart from the faith. This was demonstrated verse by verse and scripture by scripture in post # 48 linked here. I suggest you re-read it. Now why do you think GOd has given us a WARNING not to depart from the faith if it is not possible for us to do so? These are God's Words not mine.
You have been provided God's Word. God's Word is not my words but God's. In response you provide your own words. Your words are not God's Word. Only God's Word is true and we should believe and follow it *ROMANS 3:4; ACTS 5:29. I know who I believe and it is not you. God's Word is merit because we have none...
God's Word says that ALL SCRIPTURE is given by inspiration of God an is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness *2 TIMOTHY 3:16 and ALL THESE THINGS are written for our admonition upon who the ends of the world have come *1 CORINTHIANS 10:11. JESUS says we are to live by EVERY WORD that proceeds out of the mouth of GOD *MATTHEW 4:4. Life only comes by faith in God's WORD and even our faith comes through the Word *ROMANS 10:17. It is the spirit that quickens; the flesh profits nothing: the words that I speak to you, they are spirit, and they are life *JOHN 6:63. If we reject God's Word we reject JESUS who is the living Word *JOHN 1:1-4; 14. It is our faith in Gods' Word that gives us the victory to overcome the World *1 JOHN 5:4. If we do not continue believing and following God's Word we have no salvation *JOHN 8:31-32. Salvation is from sin not to continue in it *JOHN 8:31-36. If we continue in sin we will die *ROMANS 8:13 because those who do so reject the gift of God's dear son *ROMANS 6:23.
If we are still in our sins we do not know God and need to be born again *1 JOHN 2:1-4; JOHN 3:3-8. Sin is the difference between the children of God and the children of the devil *1 JOHN 3:3-10. There is no such thing as once saved always saved (OSAS). This is a false teaching that has it's origin from the father of lies in the first lie given to mankind back in the garden of Eden when Eve was told she would not surely die if she broke God's commandments GENESIS 3:1-5. God's Word teaches that salvation is conditional on believing and following God's Word.
Hope this helps.
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3rdAngel
Member
The only false gospel is one that denies Gods Word. Your just repeating yourself brother without addressing the posts and the scriptures you are quoting from that show you are in error. You can choose to believe or not believe God's Word it is up to you. They are God's Words not mine.
If we have no free will than you make God out to be a liar with your own words.
JOHN 3:15-21 [15], That WHOEVER BELIEVES (BELIEVING; Present tense) IN HIM SHOULD NOT PERISH BUT HAVE EVERLASTING LIFE [16], For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, THAT WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM SHOULD NOT PERISH BUT HAVE EVERLASTING LIFE. [17], For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
wait for it...
[18], HE THAT BELIEVES ON HIM IS NOT CONDEMNED; BUT HE THAT BELIEVES NOT IS CONDEMNED ALREADY BECUASE HE HAS NOT BELIEVED ON THE NAME OF THE ONLY BEGOTTEN SON OF GOD.
[19], And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
[20], For every one that does evil hates the light, neither comes to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
[21], But he that does truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are worked in God.
God gives us the free will and choice to believe or not believe his Word. If we believe his Word he saves us from our sins. If we choose not to believe God's Word we stay in our sins and are condemned because we do not believe in the Word of God which is God's gift to save us from our sins.
Let's see some more...
JOSHUA 24:15 And IF (conditional) it seem evil to you to serve the Lord, CHOOSE YOU THIS DAY WHO YOU WILL SERVE; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.
DEUTERONOMY 30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, [that] I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore CHOOSE LIFE THAT BOTH YOU AND YOUR SEED MAY LIVE.
Sorry brother God's Word disagrees with you. We all have free will to believe or not believe God's Word. God tells us to CHOOSE this day who you will serve... It is our faith however in Gods Word that brings us his Spirit that works in us to will and to do of His own good pleasure.
I choose to believe God's Word how about you?
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Dave G
Well-Known Member
The "natural man" is the same as the one whose carnal mind is at enmity against God in Romans 8:5-14.
Those that are "after the flesh" and "in the flesh" as opposed to those who are "in the Spirit" and "led by the Spirit".
In 1 Corinthians 2:14-16, that same "natural man" is mentioned beginning in verse 14, because Paul had just finished speaking about excellency of speech or wisdom in verse 1, enticing words of man's wisdom in verse 4, and the wisdom of this world in verse 6.
He tells the believer in verse 6 that he is speaking wisdom among them that are perfect...the believer, who is perfect in Christ ( Hebrews 10:14 ).
In verses 9 through 13, Paul tells the believers at Corinth that no one has seen what God has prepared for them that love Him...the very same things that Paul is speaking.
Things that must be revealed to a person by His Spirit ( 1 Corinthians 2:11-12 )
Therefore, the "natural man" is contrasted with the "spiritual", because that it what is contrasted in the entirety of the passage..."natural" versus "spiritual", worldly wisdom verses God's wisdom, and things of the world verses things of the Spirit.
"Natural men" are unregenerate, while "spiritual men" are born again and have the Spirit in them...because in order to know the things of God, one must have the Spirit ( 1 Corinthians 2:12 ).
True believers do not look at things, for the entirety of their lives, through the lens of carnal men.
That is a stage that passes when God's children grow both in knowledge and grace ( 1 Corinthians 3:1-4, Hebrews 5:11-14 ).
3rdAngel said:
Note the person believed for a while, then stopped when things got hard. Nowhere do we see that God credited the 2d soil faith as righteousness. This is the truth of God's Word that you do not seem to grasp. Therefore God did not set him apart in Christ, and therefore Christ "never knew him."
Ditto for 3rd Soil. Unless a person abides in Christ they cannot bear fruit. The truth is right there for you to address.
3rdAngel
Member
You are confised. The point being made was that these people in MATTHEW 13 RECEIVED GOD'S WORD AND BELIEVED FOR A WHILE and when things got hard they departed the faith. Thiis does not support your teaching of once saved always saved (OSAS) so I can understand the conflict you are having with these scriptures.
These are the very same warnings not to fall away from God's Word given in HEBREWS 6:4-8 and HEBREWS 10:26-27. It is only those who endure temptation to the end that receive eternal life *JAMES 1:12.
Those who once believed but fall away back into a life of sin become unbelievers. The rest of your post and claims makes no sense as the fact remains they believed for a while then fall away because of tribulation, persecution and the cares of the world.
This does not agree with OSAS.
1689Dave
Well-Known Member
You are missing the entire New Covenant message of salvation by grace alone. You are replacing grace with law. God turns unrepentant unbelievers into repentant believers through the New Birth. They do the things Christians do because of their new nature. You are saying people must first act like Christians, which is hypocrisy, in order to become one.
3rdAngel
Member
Making false claims and ignoring the scriptures posted and shared only in love and as a help to you that show your in error does not help your position. You have been provided God's Word not mine and it is God's Word not mine that says we are to choose this day who we will serve. *MATTHEW 6:24; JOHN 8:31-36; JOSHUA 24:15; DEUTERONOMY 30:19; JOHN 3:15-21. In response to the scriptures provided you post your own words which are not God's. Ignroing God's Word does not make them disappear.
No! I am not replacing grace with law. However you cannot have grace without law because it is God's Law that leads us to God's grace so that we might be forgiven through faith *GALATIANS 3:22-25. You do err not knowing the scriptures or the power of God.
No! I am not saying people must first act like Christians in order to become a believer. When one believes it is God who creates a new heart *HEBREWS 8:10-12 so that we can love and through love we follow what he asks us to do *JOHN 14:15; MATTHEW 22:26-40; ROMANS 13:8-10; ROMANS 3:31; ROMANS 8:1-4. God turns unrepentant sinners in to repentant sinned as they believe his Word.
Hope this helps.
1689Dave
Well-Known Member
Here's a sample of free will error. Jesus says "whoever believes has eternal life". Free will assumes he says "whoever chooses to believe has eternal life". So they produce a false gospel based on law and not on grace. Grace reads the passage "whoever believes has eternal life" as a trait of those whom God saves.
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