Is salvation conditional on choosing to believe and follow Gods Word?

[3rdAngel]

BEING A DISCIPLE OF CHRIST AND SALVATION IS CONDITIONAL ON BELIEVING AND FOLLOWING GOD'S WORD...

JOHN 8:31-36 [31], Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, IF YOU CONTINUE IN MY WORD, THEN ARE YOU MY DISCIPLES INDEED; [32], And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free. [33], They answered him, we be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how say you, You shall be made free? [34], Jesus answered them, Truly, truly, I say to you, WHOSOEVER COMMITS SIN IS THE SERVANT OF SIN. [35], And the servant stays not in the house for ever: but the Son stays ever. [36], IF THE SON SHALL MAKE YOU FREE YOU SHALL BE FREE INDEED

If we do not believe (present tense in the moment by moment) and follow God's Word then we are not his disciples and still in our sins and not set free to love.

 

[3rdAngel]

WE ARE FOLLOWERS OF GOD WE WE BELIEVE AND FOLLOW HIS WORD, IF WE DO NOT THEN WE ARE NOT GOD'S

JOHN 15:6-7 [6], IF (conditional) a man abides not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned. [7], IF (conditional) you abide in me, and my words abide in you, you shall ask what you will, and it shall be done to you.

 

[3rdAngel]

EVEN OUR FORGIVENESS IS CONDITIONAL CONFESSING OUR SINS AND FORGIVING OTHERS...

I JOHN 1:9 [9], IF (conditional) we confess our sins, he is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

MATTHEW 6:14-15 [14], For IF (conditional) you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you: [15], But IF (conditional) you forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

Salvation is conditional on believing and following God's Word.

 

[1689Dave]

EVEN OUR FORGIVENESS IS CONDITIONAL CONFESSING OUR SINS AND FORGIVING OTHERS...

I JOHN 1:9 [9], IF (conditional) we confess our sins, he is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

MATTHEW 6:14-15 [14], For IF (conditional) you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you: [15], But IF (conditional) you forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

Salvation is conditional on believing and following God's Word.

Here's how it works. Jesus says; "whoever believes has eternal life". Free will turns this into law and says "whoever chooses to believe has eternal life". But the truth is, those unrepentant unbelievers whom God turns into repentant believers through the New Birth share a common characteristic Jesus identifies as "believing". So believing is a trait of, not a condition for salvation.

 

[3rdAngel]

Hello brother Dave, your trying to argue the scriptures away with your own words. God's Word does not contradict itself. If you find yourself in a position that what you believe contradicts the scriptures it should be a warning to you that perhaps what you believe on a subject is not correct.

For example here.....

3rdAngel said: ↑ EVEN OUR FORGIVENESS IS CONDITIONAL CONFESSING OUR SINS AND FORGIVING OTHERS...

1 JOHN 1:9 [9], IF (conditional) we confess our sins, he is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

MATTHEW 6:14-15 [14], For IF (conditional) you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you: [15], But IF (conditional) you forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

Salvation is conditional on believing and following God's Word.

Your respose...

Here's how it works. Jesus says; "whoever believes has eternal life". Free will turns this into law and says "whoever chooses to believe has eternal life". But the truth is, those unrepentant unbelievers whom God turns into repentant believers through the New Birth share a common characteristic Jesus identifies as "believing". So believing is a trait of, not a condition for salvation.

Yet it God's Word not mine that say God gives us all free will to believe or not believe His Word. If GOd did not give us the power to believe His Word than salvation would not be conditional on believing and following His Word as in the very passage you quote you say "whoever believes has eternal life". Here you are contradicting yourself. There is no middle ground you can believe or not believe and believing to the end is a condition of salvation and receiving eternal life *JAMES 1:12.

Of course believing is a condition of eternal life because as the scriptures teach we can believe and follow God's Word yesterday and choose to not believe and follow God's Word today *HEBREWS 6:4-8; MATTHEW 13:20-21.

Let's believe God's Word...

JOSHUA 24:15 And IF (conditional) it seem evil to you to serve the Lord, CHOOSE YOU THIS DAY WHO YOU WILL SERVE; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.

DEUTERONOMY 30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, [that] I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore CHOOSE LIFE THAT BOTH YOU AND YOUR SEED MAY LIVE.

..........

Also, to believe is better translated BELIEVING as the scriptures in the original language are present tense active verbs.

ΚΑΤΑ ΙΩΑΝΝΗΝ 3:15-16 (SBLGNT) 15 ἵνα πᾶς ὁ πιστεύων ἐν αὐτῷ ἔχῃ ζωὴν αἰώνιον. 16 Οὕτως γὰρ ἠγάπησεν ὁ θεὸς τὸν κόσμον ὥστε τὸν υἱὸν τὸν μονογενῆ ἔδωκεν, ἵνα πᾶς ὁ πιστεύων εἰς αὐτὸν μὴ ἀπόληται ἀλλὰ ἔχῃ ζωὴν αἰώνιον.

To believe translated here is in the present tense verb of doing belief and can be translated; as BELIEVE (present tense), CONTINUING TO BELIEVE AND ACTIVELY BELIEVING

John 3:15-16 (YLT)15 that every one who is believing in him may not perish, but may have life age-during, 16 for God did so love the world, that His Son -- the only begotten -- He gave, that every one who is believing in him may not perish, but may have life age-during.

The continuing nature of saving faith is underscored by the use of the present tense of the Greek verb pisteuō (“believe”) throughout the gospel of John (cf. 3:15-18, 36; 5:24; 6:35, 40; 7:38; 11:25-26; 12:44, 46; 20:31; also Acts 10:43; 13:39; Romans 1:16; 3:22; 4:5; 9:33; 10:4, 10-11). If believing were a one-time act, the Greek tense in those verses would be aorist.

In fact, the most famous verse in the entire Bible uses a present tense verb that may be translated, “whoever continues believing in him” may have eternal life

.............

A1. To BELIEVE God means to rely and trust God's Word to do what it says it will do and follow what God says to the end!

Hope this is helpful

 

[1689Dave]

Hello brother Dave, your trying to argue the scriptures away with your own words. God's Word does not contradict itself. If you find yourself in a position that what you believe contradicts the scriptures it should be a warning to you that perhaps what you believe on a subject is not correct. For example here.....

Your respose...


Yet is it God's Word not mine that say God gives us all free will to believe or not believe His Word. If we did not have the power to believe God's Word than salvation would not be conditional on believing and following God's Word as in the very passage you quote you say "whoever believes has eternal life". Here you are contradicting yourself. There is no middle ground you can believe or not believe.

Of course believing is a condition of eternal life because as the scriptures teach we can believe and follow God's Word yesterday and choose to not believe and follow God's Word today *HEBREWS 6:4-8; MATTHEW 13:20-21.

Let's believe God's Word...

JOSHUA 24:15 And IF (conditional) it seem evil to you to serve the Lord, CHOOSE YOU THIS DAY WHO YOU WILL SERVE; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.

DEUTERONOMY 30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, [that] I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore CHOOSE LIFE THAT BOTH YOU AND YOUR SEED MAY LIVE.

..........

Also, to believe is better translated BELIEVING as the scriptures in the original language are present tense active verbs.

ΚΑΤΑ ΙΩΑΝΝΗΝ 3:15-16 (SBLGNT) 15 ἵνα πᾶς ὁ πιστεύων ἐν αὐτῷ ἔχῃ ζωὴν αἰώνιον. 16 Οὕτως γὰρ ἠγάπησεν ὁ θεὸς τὸν κόσμον ὥστε τὸν υἱὸν τὸν μονογενῆ ἔδωκεν, ἵνα πᾶς ὁ πιστεύων εἰς αὐτὸν μὴ ἀπόληται ἀλλὰ ἔχῃ ζωὴν αἰώνιον.

To believe translated here is in the present tense verb of doing belief and can be translated; as BELIEVE (present tense), CONTINUING TO BELIEVE AND ACTIVELY BELIEVING

John 3:15-16 (YLT)15 that every one who is believing in him may not perish, but may have life age-during, 16 for God did so love the world, that His Son -- the only begotten -- He gave, that every one who is believing in him may not perish, but may have life age-during.

The continuing nature of saving faith is underscored by the use of the present tense of the Greek verb pisteuō (“believe”) throughout the gospel of John (cf. 3:15-18, 36; 5:24; 6:35, 40; 7:38; 11:25-26; 12:44, 46; 20:31; also Acts 10:43; 13:39; Romans 1:16; 3:22; 4:5; 9:33; 10:4, 10-11). If believing were a one-time act, the Greek tense in those verses would be aorist.

In fact, the most famous verse in the entire Bible uses a present tense verb that may be translated, “whoever continues believing in him” may have eternal life

.............

A1. To BELIEVE God means to rely upon God's Word to do what it says it will do and and follow what God says!

Hope this is helpful

But, born again people cannot live in sin. They live holy lives because it is in their new nature to do so. Acting like a Christian = hypocrisy.

 

[3rdAngel]

But, born again people cannot live in sin. They live holy lives because it is in their new nature to do so. Acting like a Christian = hypocrisy.

Hi Dave I am not sure if I am following you here brother and do not know what you have posted here has to do with what you are responding to. Did you wish to explain this a bit further? If you read the 2nd post in the OP believe; believing leads to following God's Word. This is supportive of 1 JOHN 3:6-10; JOHN 14:15 and 1 JOHN 2:1-4 etc..

 

[1689Dave]

Hi Dave I am not sure if I am following you here brother and do not know what you have posted here has to do with what you are responding to. Did you wish to explain this a bit further? If you read the 2nd post in the OP believe; believing leads to following God's Word. This is supportive of 1 JOHN 3:6-10; JOHN 14:15 and 1 JOHN 2:1-4 etc..

What you do not grasp is the miraculous change in nature that takes place in salvation. God takes unbelieving unrepentant sinners who hate him, and turns them into a new creation who by nature love him, believe and repent.

““Moreover the Lord your God will circumcise your heart and the heart of your descendants, to love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul, so that you may live.” Deuteronomy 30:6 (NASB95)

So I continue;

“No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother.” 1 John 3:9–10 (NASB95)

Free will has nothing to do with salvation whatsoever.

 

[Revmitchell]

What you do not grasp is the miraculous change in nature that takes place in salvation. God takes unbelieving unrepentant sinners who hate him, and turns them into a new creation who by nature love him, believe and repent.

Then why do we still sin?

 

[1689Dave]

Then why do we still sin?

You need not sin if you walk in the Spirit. But if you do sin, you can confess and be granted repentance.

 

[Revmitchell]

You need not sin if you walk in the Spirit. But if you do sin, you can confess and be granted repentance.

Doesn't address my question. You said our nature has changed. So why do we still have the ability to sin?

 

[3rdAngel]

What you do not grasp is the miraculous change in nature that takes place in salvation. God takes unbelieving unrepentant sinners who hate him, and turns them into a new creation who by nature love him, believe and repent.

Sorry but I think you are confused here brother and have some misunderstanding or there is a communication break down somewhere. Your original post said...

1689Dave said: ↑ Here's how it works. Jesus says; "whoever believes has eternal life". Free will turns this into law and says "whoever chooses to believe has eternal life". But the truth is, those unrepentant unbelievers whom God turns into repentant believers through the New Birth share a common characteristic Jesus identifies as "believing". So believing is a trait of, not a condition for salvation.

To which I responded showing through the scriptures that you were contradicting yourself in post # 65 here as those who choose to believe God's Word have eternal life. To BELIEVE is the active verb of doing belief or believing in the now or continuing to believe in present tense has eternal life.

The scriptures also teach those who believed yesterday but fall away from believing and following God's Word today are no longer believing and therefore no longer have eternal life *HEBREWS 6:4-8; MATTHEW 13:20-21; HEBREWS 10:26-27.

John 3:15-16 (YLT)15 that every one who is believing in him may not perish, but may have life age-during, 16 for God did so love the world, that His Son -- the only begotten -- He gave, that every one who is believing in him may not perish, but may have life age-during.

The continuing nature of saving faith is underscored by the use of the present tense of the Greek verb pisteuō (“believe”) throughout the gospel of John (cf. 3:15-18, 36; 5:24; 6:35, 40; 7:38; 11:25-26; 12:44, 46; 20:31; also Acts 10:43; 13:39; Romans 1:16; 3:22; 4:5; 9:33; 10:4, 10-11). If believing were a one-time act, the Greek tense in those verses would be aorist.

This was showing from the scriptures that it is God that gives a sinner the power to not only choose to believe or not believe God's Word, but it is God who gives a sinner the power to walk in newness of life (to be born of God).

Free will has nothing to do with salvation whatsoever.

This is where you are confused brother and deny the scriptures. Let's have a look now at what God says...

JOHN 3:15-21 [15], That WHOEVER BELIEVES (BELIEVING; Present tense) IN HIM SHOULD NOT PERISH BUT HAVE EVERLASTING LIFE [16], For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, THAT WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM SHOULD NOT PERISH BUT HAVE EVERLASTING LIFE. [17], For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

wait for it...

[18], HE THAT BELIEVES ON HIM IS NOT CONDEMNED; BUT HE THAT BELIEVES NOT IS CONDEMNED ALREADY BECUASE HE HAS NOT BELIEVED ON THE NAME OF THE ONLY BEGOTTEN SON OF GOD.
[19], And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
[20], For every one that does evil hates the light, neither comes to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
[21], But he that does truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are worked in God.

God gives us the free will and choice to believe or not believe his Word. If we believe his Word he saves us from our sins. If we choose not to believe God's Word we stay in our sins and are condemned because we do not believe in the Word of God which is God's gift to save us from our sins.

Let's see some more...

JOSHUA 24:15 And IF (conditional) it seem evil to you to serve the Lord, CHOOSE YOU THIS DAY WHO YOU WILL SERVE; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.

DEUTERONOMY 30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, [that] I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore CHOOSE LIFE THAT BOTH YOU AND YOUR SEED MAY LIVE.

Sorry brother God's Word disagrees with you. We all have free will to believe or not believe God's Word. God tells us to CHOOSE this day who you will serve... It is our faith however in Gods Word that brings us his Spirit that works in us to will and to do of His own good pleasure.

Hope this is helpful and hope you can receive the in the Spirit it was given (love)

 

[1689Dave]

Sorry but I think you are confused here brother. Your original post said...

To which I responded showing through the scriptures that you were contradicting yourself in post # 65 here as those who believe have eternal life is to the active verb of doing belief or believing in the now or continuing to believe in present tense has eternal life.

The scriptures teach those who believed yesterday but fall away from believing and following God's Word today are no longer believing and therefore no longer have eternal life.

John 3:15-16 (YLT)15 that every one who is believing in him may not perish, but may have life age-during, 16 for God did so love the world, that His Son -- the only begotten -- He gave, that every one who is believing in him may not perish, but may have life age-during.

The continuing nature of saving faith is underscored by the use of the present tense of the Greek verb pisteuō (“believe”) throughout the gospel of John (cf. 3:15-18, 36; 5:24; 6:35, 40; 7:38; 11:25-26; 12:44, 46; 20:31; also Acts 10:43; 13:39; Romans 1:16; 3:22; 4:5; 9:33; 10:4, 10-11). If believing were a one-time act, the Greek tense in those verses would be aorist.

In fact, the most famous verse in the entire Bible uses a present tense verb that may be translated, “whoever continues believing in him” may have eternal life

.............

A1. To BELIEVE God means to rely upon God's Word to do what it says it will do and and follow what God says!

This was showing from the scriptures that it is God that gives a sinner the power to not only choose to believe or not believe God's Word and through faith in God's Word it is God gives a sinner to power to walk in newness of life (being born of God.




This is where you are confused brother and deny the scriptures. Let's have a look now at what God says...

JOHN 3:15-21
[15], That WHOEVER BELIEVES (BELIEVING; Present tense) IN HIM SHOULD NOT PERISH BUT HAVE EVERLASTING LIFE
[16], For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, THAT WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM SHOULD NOT PERISH BUT HAVE EVERLASTING LIFE.
[17], For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

wait for it...

[18], HE THAT BELIEVES ON HIM IS NOT CONDEMNED; BUT HE THAT BELIEVES NOT IS CONDEMNED ALREADY BECUASE HE HAS NOT BELIEVED ON THE NAME OF THE ONLY BEGOTTEN SON OF GOD.
[19], And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
[20], For every one that does evil hates the light, neither comes to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
[21], But he that does truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are worked in God.

God gives us the free will and choice to believe or not believe his Word. If we believe his Word he saves us from our sins. If we choose not to believe God's Word we stay in our sins and are condemned because we do not believe in the Word of God which is God's gift to save us from our sins.

Let's see some more...


JOSHUA 24:15 And IF (conditional) it seem evil to you to serve the Lord, CHOOSE YOU THIS DAY WHO YOU WILL SERVE; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.

DEUTERONOMY 30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, [that] I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore CHOOSE LIFE THAT BOTH YOU AND YOUR SEED MAY LIVE.

Sorry brother God's Word disagrees with you.

Hope this is helpful and hope you can receive the in the Spirit it was given (love)

It still remains you interpret scripture legalistically, as though we are under law. Grace presents the same scriptures as characteristics or traits of those whom God saves.

 

[3rdAngel]

It still remains you interpret scripture legalistically, as though we are under law. Grace presents the same scriptures as characteristics or traits of those whom God saves.

Making up false statements does not really help your position brother. It only shows you are not able to respond to the scriptures that are shared with you that show your in error. If you disagree with the scriptures that have been provided that disagree with your position then prove what has been shared with you is not correct. If you cannot why do you not believe the scriptures? They are God's Word not mine and they disagree with you. This is only provided as a help to you. It is up to you to believe or not believe. What will you choose?

God's sheep hear His Voice (the Word)

 

[1689Dave]

Making up false statements does not really help your position brother. It only shows you are not able to respond to the scriptures that are shared with you that show your in error. If you disagree with the scriptures that have been provided that disagree with your position then prove what has been shared with you is not correct. If you cannot why do you not believe the scriptures? They are God's Word not mine and they disagree with you. This is only provided as a help to you. It is up to you to believe or not believe. What will you choose?

God's sheep hear His Voice (the Word)

If you believe in free will, you believe the gospel is law. It goes hand in hand. The true gospel is of grace apart from law.

 

[3rdAngel]

If you believe in free will, you believe the gospel is law. It goes hand in hand. The true gospel is of grace apart from law.

Here you go again making up false statement you cannot prove through the scriptures. This is sad for you. You have just been provided the scriptures which are God's Word not mine, showing we all have freewill to choose to believe and follow or not believe and follow. You choose to ignore these scriptures. They are God's Word not mine. Ignoring God's Word does not make it dissappear.

 

[1689Dave]

Rubbish! You have just been shown scriptures showing we have freewill, you choose to ignore them. Ignoring God's Word does not make it dissappear.

Free will denies we are slaves to sin.

 

[3rdAngel]

Free will denies we are slaves to sin.

This is where your misunderstanding is. Having free will to choose to believe God's Word only leads us to discover we need a Saviour to save us from our sins and that God's Word is God's power to set us free from sin as we believe it *JOHN 8:31-36; ROMANS 6; ROMANS 8:1-4; GALATIANS 5:16; 1 JOHN 5:4.

 

[1689Dave]

This is where your misunderstanding is. Having free will to choose to believe God's Word only leads us to discover we need a Saviour to save us from our sins and that God's Word is God's power to set us free from sin *JOHN 8:31-36; ROMANS 6.

“But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised.” 1 Corinthians 2:14 (NASB95)

 

[3rdAngel]

“But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised.” 1 Corinthians 2:14 (NASB95)

Indeed the natual man has no faith but the Spiritual man walks and lives by faith *ROMANS 6 and overcomes the world *1 JOHN 5:4; GALATIANS 5:16

Those who believe have passed from death into life...

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, THAT WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM SHOULD NOT PERISH BUT HAVE EVERLASTING LIFE. [17], For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

Can you see your error here brother?