WARNINGS NOT TO DEPART THE FAITH (HEBREWS 6:4-8; HEBREWS 10:26-39)

3rdAngel · Sep 23, 2019

robycop3 said: ↑

Again, the KEY is "partaken of the HOLY SPIRIT". In the New Testament, we don't see the Holy Spirit manifesting Himself in any unsaved person. Thus, Heb. 6:4-6 is talking about a saved person who renounces his/her faith.
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Yep thanks Rob. At least someone else reads their bible but if that is not enough the rest of the list makes it very clear that those spoken of in HEBREWS 6:4-8 and HEBREWS 10:26-39 were "ONCE BELIEVERS" that departed the faith. This is what the warning is about.

God bless

loDebar · Sep 23, 2019

the persistent problem is based upon this verse and this simple words for and if
Heb 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
for
γάρ gár, gar; a primary particle; properly, assigning a reason (used in argument, explanation or intensification; often with other particles):—and, as, because (that), but, even, for, indeed, no doubt, seeing, then, therefore, verily, what, why, yet.

if 8000 times translated and
καί kaí, kahee; apparently, a primary particle, having a copulative and sometimes also a cumulative force; and, also, even, so then, too, etc.; often used in connection (or composition) with other particles or small words:—and, also, both, but, even, for, if, or, so, that, then, therefore, when, yet

Use because for for in verse 4 and in verse 6 to get a more precise meaning.

What is impossible? 1. The falling away 2. renew 3. again crucify Christ

If "falling away" is impossible then "renewing" is irrelevant

A true believer can't fall away, A true believe can not be renewed because he cant fall away and no one, no power can put Christ back on the cross, It is finished.

Calminian · Sep 23, 2019

3rdAngel said: ↑

Hi again brother. I did not mean what I said as meaning I was suspicious of you. It was only mean't as an observation in regards to your user name and a part of a welcome for you. So do not think I was being suspicious.
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Nor do I. I was just sharing.

3rdAngel said: ↑

Actually they were not saved because they departed the faith. The scriptures in HEBREWS 6:4-8 and HEBREWS 10:26-39 here say they were "ONCE BELIEVERS"; BEING ONCE ENLIGHTENED" ...
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But you kind of ignored my response. I show that enlightenment is not the same as salvation, and that enlightenment is something we must respond to with faith. There are clear verses that indicate this. No response to that?

robycop3 · Sep 23, 2019

loDebar said: ↑

the persistent problem is based upon this verse and this simple words for and if
Heb 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
for
γάρ gár, gar; a primary particle; properly, assigning a reason (used in argument, explanation or intensification; often with other particles):—and, as, because (that), but, even, for, indeed, no doubt, seeing, then, therefore, verily, what, why, yet.

if 8000 times translated and
καί kaí, kahee; apparently, a primary particle, having a copulative and sometimes also a cumulative force; and, also, even, so then, too, etc.; often used in connection (or composition) with other particles or small words:—and, also, both, but, even, for, if, or, so, that, then, therefore, when, yet

Use because for for in verse 4 and in verse 6 to get a more precise meaning.

What is impossible? 1. The falling away 2. renew 3. again crucify Christ

If "falling away" is impossible then "renewing" is irrelevant

A true believer can't fall away, A true believe can not be renewed because he cant fall away and no one, no power can put Christ back on the cross, It is finished.
Click to expand...

Please read the verses VERY CAREFULLY. V4 is describing a BELIEVER. And again, only believers partake of the Holy Spirit. And it says "if they should fall away". This isn't simply sinning; it's renouncing one's belief in Jesus.

Remember, we ALL sin. We may "fly off the handle", develop a hatred for someone, cuss out someone while driving, if another driver pulls out squarely in fronta you, have a lustful thought about a member of the other gender, etc. But we don't renounce our faith in Jesus!

Heb. 6:4-6 is crearly a warning to not abandon Jesus after coming to Him.

Calminian · Sep 23, 2019

robycop3 said: ↑

...And again, only believers partake of the Holy Spirit. ....
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Only believers are indwelled by the Holy Spirit. Only believers are sealed by the Holy Spirit. Those are the terms of salvation we look for.

Tares, on the other hand, are partakers, in that they are in the Church and can remain until the end when Jesus will sort them at the harvest. They are partakers, but they're not wheats and therefore not saved.

Jesus said,

Matt. 13:24 Another parable He put forth to them, saying: “The kingdom of heaven is like a man who sowed good seed in his field; 25 but while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat and went his way. 26 But when the grain had sprouted and produced a crop, then the tares also appeared. 27 So the servants of the owner came and said to him, “Sir, did you not sow good seed in your field? How then does it have tares?’ 28 He said to them, “An enemy has done this.’ The servants said to him, ‘Do you want us then to go and gather them up?’ 29 But he said, “No, lest while you gather up the tares you also uproot the wheat with them. 30 Let both grow together until the harvest, and at the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, “First gather together the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them, but gather the wheat into my barn.” ’ ”

loDebar · Sep 23, 2019

robycop3 said: ↑

Please read the verses VERY CAREFULLY. V4 is describing a BELIEVER. And again, only believers partake of the Holy Spirit. And it says "if they should fall away". This isn't simply sinning; it's renouncing one's belief in Jesus.

Remember, we ALL sin. We may "fly off the handle", develop a hatred for someone, cuss out someone while driving, if another driver pulls out squarely in fronta you, have a lustful thought about a member of the other gender, etc. But we don't renounce our faith in Jesus!

Heb. 6:4-6 is crearly a warning to not abandon Jesus after coming to Him.
Click to expand...

yes, it is speaking to believers, who are shown it is impossible to fall away, it is impossible to renew and it is impossible to put Christ om the cross

by your logic, you are placing "renouncing Christ" as "falling away" not in the verse,

parapiptō
to fall beside a person or thing

to slip aside

to deviate from the right path, turn aside, wander

to error

to fall away (from the true faith): from worship of Jehovah

Yeshua1 · Sep 23, 2019

3rdAngel said: ↑

HEBREWS 6:4-8 and HEBREWS 10:26-27 ARE WARNINGS TO BELIEVERS NOT TO DEPART THE FAITH

What I find amusing (well sad really) are those that are trying to argue that HEBREWS 6:4-8 and HEBREWS 10:26-38 are not direct warnings to believers not to depart the faith to return back to a life of known unrepentant sin despite these scriptures directly saying so.

Also why not answer and respond to the posts directly that have been provided earlier that show verse by verse showing CONTEXT that these scriptures are references to believers departing the faith and returning to a life of known unrepentant sin? Wheather they be JEWS or non JEWS is irrelavant because of two important facts. The points being made were that the WARNING CONTEXT of these scriptures were; 1. TO BELIEVERS and 2. THAT DEPARTED THE FAITH TO RETURN TO KNOWN UNREPENTANT SIN.

1. THESE SCRIPTURES REFER TO BELIEVERS THAT HAD A KNOWLEDGE OF THE TRUTH

Let's look at the scriptures...

HEBREWS 6:4-8 [4], For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,[5], And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

Who are we talking about here; BELIEVERS or UNBELIEVERS? The question your considering is; were these BELIEVERS and Born again christians. These scriptures directly say word for word that the topic of dscussion here are those who were BELIEVERS as the scriptures say...

1. They were once enlightened; HEBREWS 6:4
2. Having tasted of the Heavenly gift; HEBREWS 6:4
3. They were made partakers of the Holy Ghost; HEBREWS 6:4
4. Having tasted of the good Word of God; HEBREWS 6:5
5. Having tasted of the power of the world to come HEBREWS 6:5

So reviewing the CONTEXT of these scriptures we don't really need to say much they speak for themselves. Yep, HEBREWS 6:4-8 very clearly show here that we are talking about BELIEVERS having fallen away from the HEAVENLY gift back into a life of sin crucifying the son of God afresh.

Let's also look at HEBREWS 10:26-27

HEBREWS 10:26-27 [26], For IF WE (BELIEVERS) sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, [27], But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

Yep Paul includes himself in this WARNING. The subject matter is...

1. WE (BELIEVERS) return back to a life of known unrepentant SIN; HEBREWS 10:26
2. WE (BELIEVERS) being those who have received a knowledge of the truth; HEBREWS 10:26
3. WE (BELIEVERS) will receive the judgments of God; HEBREWS 10:27

Ok point 1 is established. Do you agree that these scriptures are in reference and WARNINGS to BELIEVERS and that these scripture are speaking about BELIEVERS that have a knowledge of the truth of the Gospel of JESUS Christ who return back to a life of sin?

Part 2 will follow...
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Jesus stated that he will lose NONE that he saves, do you believe Him on this issue?

Calminian · Sep 23, 2019

loDebar said: ↑

yes, it is speaking to believers, who are shown it is impossible to fall away, it is impossible to renew and it is impossible to put Christ om the cross

by your logic, you are placing "renouncing Christ" as "falling away" not in the verse,

parapiptō
to fall beside a person or thing

to slip aside

to deviate from the right path, turn aside, wander

to error

to fall away (from the true faith): from worship of Jehovah

Click to expand...

Boy, those sure seem like condemning terms being used:

Heb. 6:7 For the earth which drinks in the rain that often comes upon it, and bears herbs useful for those by whom it is cultivated, receives blessing from God; 8 but if it bears thorns and briers, it is rejected and near to being cursed, whose end is to be burned.

Seems both the antinomian and extreme arminian side of this debate insist that "enlighten" must refer to saved believers. Doesn't it bother either side that Jesus himself said enlightenment is something that must be responded to with faith?

3rdAngel · Sep 23, 2019

Calminian said: ↑

But you kind of ignored my response. I show that enlightenment is not the same as salvation, and that enlightenment is something we must respond to with faith. There are clear verses that indicate this. No response to that?
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Not really. I did not ignore your response at all. I addressed everything you said section by section with God's Word showing that it did not agree with the scriptures. Please if you disagree and you believe otherwise maybe you can show me why you believe I ignored your response. In the post provided to you. It was shown that HEBREWS 6:4-8 "ENLIGHTENMENT" was only one part of the description of those who were "ONCE BELIEVERS". HEBBREWS 6:4-8 besides saying these peopel were "ENLIGHTENED" also say they were "ENLIGHTENED" by "RECEIVING THE WORD OF GOD", they also "RECEIVED THE HOLY SPIRIT". they also "TASTED OF THE WORLD TO COME" and they "TASTED OF THE HEAVENLY GIFT (Christ)" then it goes on to say they "FALL AWAY" from the faith back into a life of wilful known sin

Yep seems like I addressed your post in detail showing that the scriptures word for word was talking about those who were "ONCE BELIEVERS" and had departed the faith. These are God's Words not mine. The word "ENLIGHTENED" is used in context with the rest of the list in reference to those who were "ONCE BELIEVERS" that had fallen away and departed the faith. You would have to deny God's Word to say that HEBREWS 6:4-8 is not talking about those who were "ONCE BELIEVERS" then for extra clarity we have HEBREWS 10:26-39 that states "IF WE (believers) sin after we receive a knowledge of the truth... The WARNINGS continue.

God bless

God bless

3rdAngel · Sep 23, 2019

loDebar said: ↑

the persistent problem is based upon this verse and this simple words for and if
Heb 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
for
γάρ gár, gar; a primary particle; properly, assigning a reason (used in argument, explanation or intensification; often with other particles):—and, as, because (that), but, even, for, indeed, no doubt, seeing, then, therefore, verily, what, why, yet.

if 8000 times translated and
καί kaí, kahee; apparently, a primary particle, having a copulative and sometimes also a cumulative force; and, also, even, so then, too, etc.; often used in connection (or composition) with other particles or small words:—and, also, both, but, even, for, if, or, so, that, then, therefore, when, yet

Use because for for in verse 4 and in verse 6 to get a more precise meaning.

What is impossible? 1. The falling away 2. renew 3. again crucify Christ

If "falling away" is impossible then "renewing" is irrelevant

A true believer can't fall away, A true believe can not be renewed because he cant fall away and no one, no power can put Christ back on the cross, It is finished.
Click to expand...

The words "IF"; "THAN" and "FOR" do not effect the meaning of HEBREWS 6:4-8 or HEBREWS 10:26-39. They support the scriptures presented here in the OP. The GREEK and HEBREWS Word "IF" is used close to 2000 times in the OLD and NEW TESTAMENT scriptures and prove that both SALVATION and all of God's promises, blessings and curses are all "CONDITIONAL" on "BELIEVING AND FOLLOWING God's Word.

THE LITTLE WORD “IF” DEMONSTRATES IN BOTH THE OLD AND NEW TESTAMENT HEBREW AND GREEK SCRIPTURES THAT SALVATION IS CONDITIONAL ON FREE WILL TO CHOOSE TO BOTH BELIEVE AND FOLLOW (FRUIT) GOD'S WORD (present tense) OR NOT TO BELIEVE AND FOLLOW GOD'S WORD.

OLD TESTAMENT (Not definitive)

“IF” (Hebrew) *H518; אם;'im; A primitive particle; used very widely as demonstrative, lo !; interrogitive, whether ?; or conditional, if, although ; also Oh that !, when ; hence as a negative, not: - (and, can-, doubtless, if, that) (not), + but, either, + except, + more (-over if, than), neither, nevertheless, nor, oh that, or, + save (only, -ing), seeing, since, sith, + surely (no more, none, not), though, + of a truth, + unless, + verily, when, whereas, whether, while, + yet.

We must do well according to Gods' Word (believe and follow) in order to be accepted...

GENESIS 4:7 IF (conditional) you do well, shall you not be accepted? and if you do not well, sin lies at the door. And to you shall be his desire, and you shall rule over him.

Consequences for not believing and following...

GENESIS 20:7 Now therefore restore the man his wife; for he is a prophet, and he shall pray for you, and you shall live: and IF (conditional) you restore her not, know you that you shall surely die, you, and all that are yours.

EXODUS 4:23 And I say to you, let my son go, that he may serve me: and IF (conditional) you refuse to let him go, behold, I will slay your son, even your firstborn.

Blessings for believing and following...

EXODUS 15:26 And said, IF (conditional) you will diligently listen to the voice of the LORD your God, and will do that which is right in his sight, and will give ear to his commandments, and keep all his statutes, I will put none of these diseases on you, which I have brought on the Egyptians: for I am the LORD that heals you.

LEVITICUS 26:3-5 [3], IF (conditional) you walk in my statutes, and keep my commandments, and do them; [4] THEN I will give you rain in due season, and the land shall yield her increase, and the trees of the field shall yield their fruit. [5], And your threshing shall reach to the vintage, and the vintage shall reach to the sowing time: and you shall eat your bread to the full, and dwell in your land safely.

LEVITICUS 26:14-18 [14], But IF (conditional) you will not listen to me, and will not do all these commandments; [15] And IF (conditional) you shall despise my statutes, or if your soul abhor my judgments, so that you will not do all my commandments, but that you break my covenant: [16], I also will do this to you; I will even appoint over you terror, consumption, and the burning ague, that shall consume the eyes, and cause sorrow of heart: and you shall sow your seed in vain, for your enemies shall eat it. [17], And I will set my face against you, and you shall be slain before your enemies: they that hate you shall reign over you; and you shall flee when none pursues you. [18], And IF (conditional) you will not yet for all this listen to me, then I will punish you seven times more for your sins.

There are too mant more to write so may stop here for the Old Testament scriptures and maybe post some more latter.

More examples to come...

loDebar · Sep 23, 2019

Calminian said: ↑

Boy, those sure seem like condemning terms being used:

Heb. 6:7 For the earth which drinks in the rain that often comes upon it, and bears herbs useful for those by whom it is cultivated, receives blessing from God; 8 but if it bears thorns and briers, it is rejected and near to being cursed, whose end is to be burned.

Seems both the antinomian and extreme arminian side of this debate insist that "enlighten" must refer to saved believers. Doesn't it bother either side that Jesus himself said enlightenment is something that must be responded to with faith?
Click to expand...

salvation is offered to all like rain, it depends upon the receiver what is brought forth, The choose comes with consequences

Squire Robertsson · Sep 23, 2019

Six Hour Warning
This thread will be closed sometime after 6:45 PM Pacific.

Calminian · Sep 23, 2019

3rdAngel said: ↑

Not really. I did not ignore your response at all. I addressed everything you said section by section with God's Word showing that it did not agree with the scriptures. ...
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No, sorry you didn't. In fact, you skipped the main part about the meaning of enlightenment.

It would appear that in order for your theory to work, enlightenment must refer to salvation, and you must assume this a priori. For me, I'm going to search the Scriptures for the meaning of enlightenment. Passages like John 1:9, John 12:35-36 and Jeremiah 13:16 shed a lot of light on this issue, to abuse a pun. I don't think these are passages you've considered. But they make it clear enlightenment precedes faith, and demands a response.

3rdAngel · Sep 23, 2019

NEW TESTAMENT (not definitive)

“IF” (Greek) *G1437; אםἐάν; ean; a conditional particle; in case that, provided, etc.; often used in connection with other particles to denote indefiniteness or uncertainty : - before, but, except, (and) if, (if) so, (what-, whither-) soever, though, when (-soever), whether (or), to whom, [who-] so (-ever)., See G3361.

God's forgiveness is conditional...

I JOHN 1:9 [9], IF (conditional) we confess our sins, he is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

MATTHEW 6:14-15 [14], For IF (conditional) you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you: [15], But IF (conditional) you forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

Being a disciple we must follow what Jesus says...

MATTHEW 16:24 Then said Jesus to his disciples, IF (conditional) any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

Conditons for inheriting eternal life...

MATTHEW 19:16-19 [16], And, behold, one came and said to him, Good Master, what good thing shall I DO, that I may have eternal life? [17], And he said to him, Why call you me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but IF (conditional) you will enter into life, keep the commandments. [18], He said to him, Which? Jesus said, You shall do no murder, You shall not commit adultery, You shall not steal, You shall not bear false witness, [19], Honor your father and your mother: and, You shall love your neighbor as yourself.

JOHN 6:51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: IF (conditional) any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.

JOHN 8:24 I said therefore to you, that you shall die in your sins: for IF (conditional) you believe not that I am he, you shall die in your sins.

JOHN 8:31-32 [31], Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, IF (conditional) you continue in my word, then are you my disciples indeed;[32], And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

JOHN 8:39 They answered and said to him, Abraham is our father. Jesus said to them, IF you were Abraham's children, you would do the works of Abraham.

JOHN 8:51 Truly, truly, I say to you, IF (conditional) a man keeps my saying, he shall never see death.

God only hears those who are following His Word...

JOHN 9:31 Now we know that God hears not sinners: but IF (conditional) any man be a worshipper of God, and does his will, him he hears.

JOHN 14:15 IF (conditional) you love me, keep my commandments.

JOHN 15:10 IF (conditional) you keep my commandments, you shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments and abide in his love.

JOHN 15:14 You are my friends, IF (conditional) you do whatever I command you.

JOHN 14:23 Jesus answered and said to him, IF (conditional) a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come to him, and make our stay with him.

JOHN 15:6-7 [6], IF (conditional) a man abides not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned. [7], IF (conditional) you abide in me, and my words abide in you, you shall ask what you will, and it shall be done to you.

Ok once again too many to list and may post some more latter..

But you get the picture right? Both God's "SALVATION" and God's "PROMISES" are all "CONDITIONAL" on BELIEVING and FOLLOWING God's WORD. This is the same as saying "IF" we do not "BELIEVE and FOLLOW GOD'S WORD" we do not have salvation because all those who do not "BELIEVE AND FOLLOW" God's Word are "UNBELIEVERS"

So no these words only show a "CONDITIONAL PARTICLE" to HEBREWS 6:4-8 meaning IF YOU DO THIS THAN THIS WILL HAPPEN

Hope this is helpful

loDebar · Sep 23, 2019

3rdAngel said: ↑

The words "IF"; "THAN" and "FOR" do not effect the meaning of HEBREWS 6:4-8 or HEBREWS 10:26-39. They support the scriptures presented here in the OP. The GREEK and HEBREWS Word "IF" is used close to 2000 times in the OLD and NEW TESTAMENT scriptures and prove that both SALVATION and all of God's promises, blessings and curses are all "CONDITIONAL" on "BELIEVING AND FOLLOWING God's Word.

THE LITTLE WORD “IF” DEMONSTRATES IN BOTH THE OLD AND NEW TESTAMENT HEBREW AND GREEK SCRIPTURES THAT SALVATION IS CONDITIONAL ON FREE WILL TO CHOOSE TO BOTH BELIEVE AND FOLLOW (FRUIT) GOD'S WORD (present tense) OR NOT TO BELIEVE AND FOLLOW GOD'S WORD.

OLD TESTAMENT (Not definitive)

“IF” (Hebrew) *H518; אם;'im; A primitive particle; used very widely as demonstrative, lo !; interrogitive, whether ?; or conditional, if, although ; also Oh that !, when ; hence as a negative, not: - (and, can-, doubtless, if, that) (not), + but, either, + except, + more (-over if, than), neither, nevertheless, nor, oh that, or, + save (only, -ing), seeing, since, sith, + surely (no more, none, not), though, + of a truth, + unless, + verily, when, whereas, whether, while, + yet.

We must do well according to Gods' Word (believe and follow) in order to be accepted...

GENESIS 4:7 IF (conditional) you do well, shall you not be accepted? and if you do not well, sin lies at the door. And to you shall be his desire, and you shall rule over him.

Consequences for not believing and following...

GENESIS 20:7 Now therefore restore the man his wife; for he is a prophet, and he shall pray for you, and you shall live: and IF (conditional) you restore her not, know you that you shall surely die, you, and all that are yours.

EXODUS 4:23 And I say to you, let my son go, that he may serve me: and IF (conditional) you refuse to let him go, behold, I will slay your son, even your firstborn.

Blessings for believing and following...

EXODUS 15:26 And said, IF (conditional) you will diligently listen to the voice of the LORD your God, and will do that which is right in his sight, and will give ear to his commandments, and keep all his statutes, I will put none of these diseases on you, which I have brought on the Egyptians: for I am the LORD that heals you.

LEVITICUS 26:3-5 [3], IF (conditional) you walk in my statutes, and keep my commandments, and do them; [4] THEN I will give you rain in due season, and the land shall yield her increase, and the trees of the field shall yield their fruit. [5], And your threshing shall reach to the vintage, and the vintage shall reach to the sowing time: and you shall eat your bread to the full, and dwell in your land safely.

LEVITICUS 26:14-18 [14], But IF (conditional) you will not listen to me, and will not do all these commandments; [15] And IF (conditional) you shall despise my statutes, or if your soul abhor my judgments, so that you will not do all my commandments, but that you break my covenant: [16], I also will do this to you; I will even appoint over you terror, consumption, and the burning ague, that shall consume the eyes, and cause sorrow of heart: and you shall sow your seed in vain, for your enemies shall eat it. [17], And I will set my face against you, and you shall be slain before your enemies: they that hate you shall reign over you; and you shall flee when none pursues you. [18], And IF (conditional) you will not yet for all this listen to me, then I will punish you seven times more for your sins.

There are too mant more to write so may stop here for the Old Testament scriptures and maybe post some more latter.

More examples to come...
Click to expand...

If as used in the KJV is not even as the English use it , another word is used for our if in Greek

This is not Hebrew as used in the OT, it is Greek and this "if" has been translated over 8000 times as "and"

loDebar · Sep 23, 2019

Squire Robertsson said: ↑

Six Hour Warning
This thread will be closed sometime after 6:45 PM Pacific.
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Mercy killing?

3rdAngel · Sep 23, 2019

Calminian said: ↑

No, sorry you didn't. In fact, you skipped the main part about the meaning of enlightenment.

It would appear that in order for your theory to work, enlightenment must refer to salvation, and you must assume this a priori. For me, I'm going to search the Scriptures for the meaning of enlightenment. Passages like John 1:9, John 12:35-36 and Jeremiah 13:16 shed a lot of light on this issue, to abuse a pun. I don't think these are passages you've considered.
Click to expand...

Sorry friend but respectfully I say I think it is you that have not read and ignored the post provided to you and I guess that is why you are now only part quoting what is being written to you. In HEBREWS 6:4-8 the word "ENLIGHTENED" by itself means to KNOW. It is used in CONTEXT of "RECEIVING THE WORD OF GOD", "RECEIVING THE HOLY SPIRIT", "TASTING OF THE WORLD TO COME" and they "TASTING OF THE HEAVENLY GIFT (Christ)" then it goes on to say they "FALL AWAY" from the faith back into a life of wilful known sin. Now please show me how these people were not "ONCE BELIEVERS"? If you cannot why do you not believe the scriptures provided? They are God's Word not mine and we should believe and follow them. We can stop here but we have not even started talking about HEBREWS 10:26-39.

3rdAngel · Sep 23, 2019

loDebar said: ↑

If as used in the KJV is not even as the English use it , another word is used for our if in Greek This is not Hebrew as used in the OT, it is Greek and this "if" has been translated over 8000 times as "and"
Click to expand...

As shown through the scriptures earlier the GREEK and HEBREW words used for "IF" only demonstrate "CONDITIONS" of what is being said. Therefore does not effect the meaning of HEBREWS 6:4-8 and HEBREWS 10:26-39. Another words "IF" (CONDITION) we do this that this will happen.

“IF” (Greek) *G1437; אםἐάν; ean; a conditional particle; in case that, provided, etc.; often used in connection with other particles to denote indefiniteness or uncertainty : - before, but, except, (and) if, (if) so, (what-, whither-) soever, though, when (-soever), whether (or), to whom, [who-] so (-ever)., See G3361.

“IF” (Hebrew) *H518; אם;'im; A primitive particle; used very widely as demonstrative, lo !; interrogitive, whether ?; or conditional, if, although ; also Oh that !, when ; hence as a negative, not: - (and, can-, doubtless, if, that) (not), + but, either, + except, + more (-over if, than), neither, nevertheless, nor, oh that, or, + save (only, -ing), seeing, since, sith, + surely (no more, none, not), though, + of a truth, + unless, + verily, when, whereas, whether, while, + yet.

The word "IF" being used in both the OLD and NEW TESTAMENT scriptures only support the scriptures provided in this OP and show that both SALVATION and God's PROMISES are always CONDITIONAL on BELIEVING and FOLLOWING God's Word.

Hope this is helpful.

loDebar · Sep 23, 2019

3rdAngel said: ↑

As shown through the scriptures earlier the GREEK and HEBREW words used for "IF" only demonstrate "CONDITIONS" of what is being said. Therefore does not effect the meaning of HEBREWS 6:4-8 and HEBREWS 10:26-39. Another words "IF" (CONDITION) we do this that this will happen.

“IF” (Greek) *G1437; אםἐάν; ean; a conditional particle; in case that, provided, etc.; often used in connection with other particles to denote indefiniteness or uncertainty : - before, but, except, (and) if, (if) so, (what-, whither-) soever, though, when (-soever), whether (or), to whom, [who-] so (-ever)., See G3361.

“IF” (Hebrew) *H518; אם;'im; A primitive particle; used very widely as demonstrative, lo !; interrogitive, whether ?; or conditional, if, although ; also Oh that !, when ; hence as a negative, not: - (and, can-, doubtless, if, that) (not), + but, either, + except, + more (-over if, than), neither, nevertheless, nor, oh that, or, + save (only, -ing), seeing, since, sith, + surely (no more, none, not), though, + of a truth, + unless, + verily, when, whereas, whether, while, + yet.

Hope this is helpful.
Click to expand...

It is not if it is kai, and not Hebrew.

καί kaí, kahee; apparently, a primary particle, having a copulative and sometimes also a cumulative force; and, also, even, so then, too, etc.; often used in connection (or composition) with other particles or small words:—and, also, both, but, even, for, if, or, so, that, then, therefore, when, yet.

mostly translated "and" like Hebrews 1:1

your previous post is unrelated to the verses

3rdAngel · Sep 23, 2019

Yeshua1 said: ↑

Jesus stated that he will lose NONE that he saves, do you believe Him on this issue?
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This is one of God's promises to those who "BELIEVE AND FOLLOW" God's Word (present tense verb). It is not a promise to those who depart the faith to become "UNBELIEVERS" and no longer believe and follow God's Word and return to a life of known unrepentant sin *HEBREWS 6:4-8; HEBREWS 10:26-39. Those who do not believe (present tense verb = believing) are condemned because they do not believe and follow *JOHN 3:15-21.

God bless

WARNINGS NOT TO DEPART THE FAITH (HEBREWS 6:4-8; HEBREWS 10:26-39)

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