COL 2:16 And The Sabbath - Are You Being Told The Truth?

Just out of curiosity, did anyone actually read through all 7 of the Opening Posts wall of text?

(It seemed too high a price to pay just to join a conversation that will change nobody’s mind.)

 

For somebody who thinks Jesus told a big fib in Luke 16 about the man in torments in hades, this guy really is one to lecture about believing the Word. Ain't he?

 

So you are saying that the entire portions of Isaiah, a Psalm, Kings and Chronicles aren't worth reading, simply because they 'repeat'? If not, help me understand the logic you are using here.

 

Indeed, there is quite a bit of exaggeration (and less of refutation) involved in certain responses. Imagine on the day when they are face to face with God, and they have ready their long list of excuses of why they transgressed the 4th commandment in regards the 7th day, and then is the fulfillment of the scripture, that which they measured by is measured again unto them, and then "TL;DR" is emblazoned across the sky in fiery letters of gold, written by the Holy Ghost (just imagining).

 

There is nowhere in scripture that says that the 'old covenant' is the Ten Commandments. That too is eisegetically read into certain texts, when the context declares otherwise.

Jeremiah itself even refutes the claim, for Jeremiah says, under inspiration, "I will put my law ...". Just do a study in Jeremiah (then elsewhere) about "my law". It refers to the Ten Commandments. Don't take my word for it, go look up the words, "my law" or "my laws".

For instance:

Exo_16:4 Then said the LORD unto Moses, Behold, I will rain bread from heaven for you; and the people shall go out and gather a certain rate every day, that I may prove them, whether they will walk in my law, or no.

What is amazing, is the goal post shifting that goes on during the conversations on the Sabbath, from 1st day to no day, to any day, to changed, to no change, to solemnity change, to covenants, to day lines, to ISS, to Lunar, to etc etc etc ... It's truly a mess of a mess. Babylon (iow "confusion") itself.

 

That is a misrepresentation of the following text:

Jer 31:32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:

Notice, it says nothing about "law". It refers to "Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers ..."

That "covenant" is found in Exodus 19, and is not the Ten Commandments:

Exo 19:3 And Moses went up unto God, and the LORD called unto him out of the mountain, saying, Thus shalt thou say to the house of Jacob, and tell the children of Israel;
Exo 19:4 Ye have seen what I did unto the Egyptians, and how I bare you on eagles' wings, and brought you unto myself.
Exo 19:5 Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine:
Exo 19:6 And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.
Exo 19:7 And Moses came and called for the elders of the people, and laid before their faces all these words which the LORD commanded him.
Exo 19:8 And all the people answered together, and said, All that the LORD hath spoken we will do. And Moses returned the words of the people unto the LORD.

There are two covenants mentioned here.

[1] God's "my covenant", aka "His covenant" = the eternal covenant, the Ten Commandments (that already existed, even with Abraham, etc)

[2] The ('old') covenant God made with "their fathers", in which He offered, "If ... then ...", and they said, "All that the LORD hath spoken we will do. ..." (which 'covenant' at that time, then came into existence), then turn to Hebrews 8:

Heb 8:6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.
Heb 8:7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.
Heb 8:8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
Heb 8:9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.

The 'old' covenant was their agreement to obey God in all things.

The Law of God, the Ten Commandments, is at the heart of both covenants (see 2 Cor 3), but the means by which it is obeyed is differing. in the 'old' they promised and failed. Their promises of their fathers was faulty (in fact Jeremiah speaks of the teeth set on edge). God's Law of Ten Commandments are perfect promises, never to be rescinded.

Psa_89:34 My covenant will I not break, nor alter the thing that is gone out of my lips.

The Two Great Commandments are smack in heart of the Torah OT, Deuteronomy 6:5 and Leviticus 19:17-18, in context of God's Law, the Ten Commandments, see Deut 5, and Lev. 19 "sin". I thought you told us it wasn't the same? What gives?

 

Ummm, it is God's Holy day, not ours, neither even Ellen G White's, since it existed before she did.

Who is doing the ad-libbing?

Already responded to this in several points. There is not, and never has been an injunction by God against meeting on any day of the week. This is non-sequitur to the issue at hand. Jews and Christians met on every day of the week, before, during and after Jesus lived on this earth. It is a non issue.

You will not find the word "SUNDAY/s" one time in scripture.

God's people are to worship God 24/7 - 365.

The matter is about whether persons are keeping or transgressing the 4th Commandment. if a person is transgressing the 4th commandment in any one of the 7 days it mentions, then it is not worship of God (period). The Sabbath commandment encompasses the entire week, not just the 7th day. Read Exodus 20:8-11 carefully.

Maybe not here, but some do. Others say so by their actions, not by their words.

Great, because, the Ten Commandments, being a whole (Ecc. 12:13-14) unit, are not ceremonial in any part of it. Paul stated that the whole Law, the Ten Commandments, was "spiritual" (Romans 7:14). Notice, Paul said, "we (Christians) know", and therefore anyone who does not "know" as Paul described, what then are they according to the same text?

Again, the Ten Commandments, being "spiritual", not "ceremonial" (and never listed in scripture as such), include the stranger, and even the beasts. it encompasses the whole creation. Read Exodus 20:8-11 carefully.

That is a horse of a different colour and not at all the same as this topic, though you may think so.

Sure did.

Actually, he placed those "sabbaths" in the context of "shadow", and elsewhere "carnal". The Ten Commandments are "light" and "spiritual". Therefore, Paul does indeed differentiate. even by the inspiration of the Holy Ghost.

Opinion, whether honest or not, may be safely laid aside. The Text is all that matters.

I agree. That's why he cited Ezekiel 45:17 in Colossians 2. Read the context of Ezekiel 45, slowly.

In a certain sense that is true, yet the Ten Commandments aren't "Jewish", they are from Heaven, spoken and written by God. They are God's Law. Not Jewish law.

Actually no. We teach to keep all the law. What you are teaching is to relegate the 4th commandment to obscurity and select parts of the rest of the Ten C as still binding, and thus you teach "PART of the law".

Again, that is the straw man coming out. No. NO. NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO......

I do not know if that will be clear enough.

Ephesians 2:8-10; Titus 3:3-7, etc.

Yet, you cannot see this, since you teach OSAS. Walking in the will of God (God's Law of Ten Commandments, Psalms 40:8, etc), having been delivered by God's grace through faith, etc, is not attempting salvation by works. It is working IN faith.

Can a person be lost because they have rejected one of God's Ten Commandments? Yes. It doesn't matter which one. However, there is a test coming upon all the world in regards God's Law, see Revelation 3:10; 14:6-12, 17:12, etc.

That is because physical circumcision was merely an outward sign, which was to represent what was supposed to be in the heart. The Pharisees, etc forgot all about the inward part, and merely looked for outward show/display. God even in the OT, looked for circumcision of the heart. Paul covers this in several places:

Gal_5:6 For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.

Gal_6:15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.

1Co_7:19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.

Notice the parallelism.

Yes, as Paul says, not according to the type, but according to the antitype.

1Co_5:8 Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.

This is even right now the anti-typical Day of Atonement. Soon comes Tabernacles.

Do you not keep the Passover? Is it not Christ Jesus?

Kosher isn't scriptural, it is talmudic and rabbinic.

E G White is not the concern of the thread is it?

All Christians are to be circumcised (heart).

I do, and Christ is my Passover:

1Co_5:7 Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:

Then a person might say, then Christ is my sabbath, but they have no such text ...

No, that is a misunderstanding of the whole thing. Jesus said:

Mat_5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

No, we do not. Ad hominem, and undocumented. I just addressed everything by scripture.

All non-sequitur to the topic of OP.

A person could be wrong on all those things mentioned, and be dead right about the text of Colossians 2, and being wrong on the one, doesn't mean one is wrong on the other by mere association. (I did not say we are wrong, merely positing the obvious).

 

That just disproved what you are attempting to say. The Ten Commandments (a "whole" unit; Ecc. 12:13-14) are "light" (Isaiah 8:20, Proverbs 6:23; etc) never "shadow", are "spiritual" (Romans 7:14), never "carnal", always God's "Law", never "ordinance", always the memorial "Remember".

Therefore, Paul in using those words, in association with "sabbaths" (Col 2) makes the distinction by the contextual words. This was already demonstrated in my previous response, which seemed to have been ignored.

Isn't it amazing how you have to eisegetically add to God's words, saying, "weekly Sabbaths", in Galatians when no such words are found there?

We will look at Galatians 4, in just a few.

Again, not so, and furthermore, The Sabbath of the 4th Commandment isn't "Jewish". It belongs unto God. It is God's rest. Thus it is "my sabbaths", not "their sabbaths".

The people who act this way against the sabbath of the LORD, are the actual anti-semites here. They hate all that is by their definition "Jewish". Think about it.

Actually, no again, going by the pattern set from Numbers. Festivals, or "feast days" come in their "season", and differ from the sabbaths of years, 7th years and 50th years. Not every "festival" was a sabbath. Passover, was not a sabbath, yet it was a feast day.

 

You have it reversed, even as Galatians showed. it is not "year, Month, Week". It is quite the opposite, and thus you have turned scripture upside down:

Notice, that Numbers 28, delineates the 7th day before all the others.

Numbers 28:1-8 KJB, is the "continual" or "day by day" offerings, aka 'the daily'.

Numbers 28:9-10 KJB, is the "every sabbath" on "the sabbath day", which is the weekly 7th day Sabbath offerings.

Numbers 28:11-15 KJB, is the "beginnings of your months", and "every month", or monthly offerings.

Numbers 28:16-25 KJB is the "in the fourteenth day of the first month is the passover of the LORD" and "in the fifteenth day of this month is the feast: seven days shall unleavened bread", which is the seasonal feast of Passover and of unleavened bread of the spring, and would be the spring seasonal offering, or even the first feast of the religious year offering.

Numbers 28:26-31 KJB is the "in the day of the firstfruits" and "after your weeks", or the seaonal wavesheaf offering along with Pentecost [feast of weeks], which basically closes the seasonal spring feasts.

Numbers 29:1-6 KJB continues them of the seasonal feasts "in the seventh month, on the first day of the month, ye shall have an holy convocation; ye shall do no servile work: it is a day of blowing the trumpets", which is the seasonal fall feast of Trumpets and its offerings.

Numbers 29:7-11 KJB is the "have on the tenth day of this seventh month an holy convocation; and ye shall afflict your souls: ye shall not do any work therein", "of atonement", or the seasonal fall feast of the day of atonement offering.

Numbers 29:12-40 KJB is the "on the fifteenth day of the seventh month ye shall have an holy convocation; ye shall do no servile work, and ye shall keep a feast unto the LORD seven days", which is the final seasonal fall feast of booths/ingathering/tabernacles offerings. Which completes the full offerings in the year.

This is undisputed, and undisputable.

The 7th day is never listed last, and in Numbers 28 it is in increasing order (daily, weekly, seasonly, monthly, yearly). Even as in Leviticus 23, and Leviticus 25, followed by all the other materials, the daily meat and drink offerings, seasonal feast days, monthly new moons, and of years (yearly) sabbaths (7th and 50th years).

 

In the light of Numbers 28:

Galatians 4:10 -

Gal 4:10 Ye observe days, and months, and times, and years.
Notice, the weekly is missing from Gal 4:10.

1 Chronicles 23:31 -

Please notice:

1Ch 23:30 And to stand every morning to thank and praise the LORD, and likewise at even;
1Ch 23:31 And to offer all burnt sacrifices unto the LORD in the sabbaths, in the new moons, and on the set feasts, by number, according to the order commanded unto them, continually before the LORD:

Vs 30 begins with the "daily", even the "morning" and "even[ing]".
vs 31 continues with weekly sabbaths, monthly new moons, seasonal feasts (spring/fall), which would also include the yearly sabbaths following.

Therefore, it is again, in increasing, nor decreasing order. [1] days, [2] weeks, [3] months [4] seasons [5] yearly.

In Colossians 2, the weekly are not included, as they are not "ordinances", but rather God's Law.

Why are you reversing the order from what is clearly given?




2 Chronicles 2:4 -

Notice again:

2Ch 2:4 Behold, I build an house to the name of the LORD my God, to dedicate it to him, and to burn before him sweet incense, and for the continual shewbread, and for the burnt offerings morning and evening, on the sabbaths, and on the new moons, and on the solemn feasts of the LORD our God. This is an ordinance for ever to Israel.

Notice the "continual", which is the "daily" as seen by the "morning and evening" again. Then follows the weekly, then the monthly, then the seaonsal feast (spring/fall), which also would include the yearly sabbaths that take place within some of them. Notice that not all feasts are sabbaths, and thu are two distinct phenomena.

Again your order is reversed.





2 Chronicles 8:13 -

Notice again:

2Ch 8:13 Even after a certain rate every day, offering according to the commandment of Moses, on the sabbaths, and on the new moons, and on the solemn feasts, three times in the year, even in the feast of unleavened bread, and in the feast of weeks, and in the feast of tabernacles.

"certiain rate every day" (meat and drink offerings), is the daily again. This is followed by the weekly, then the monthly and the seasonal festal (spring/fall) and thus includes "three times in the year", or yearly.

You order is reversed.



2 Chronicles 31:3 -

Notice:

2Ch 31:3 He appointed also the king's portion of his substance for the burnt offerings, to wit, for the morning and evening burnt offerings, and the burnt offerings for the sabbaths, and for the new moons, and for the set feasts, as it is written in the law of the LORD.

Notice the "burnt offerings: for the daily "morning and evening". This is followed by the weekly, then the monthly new moons, and then the seasonal festal (spring/fall), which would include the yearly again.

Your order is reversed.



Nehemiah 10:33 -

Notice:

Neh 10:33 For the shewbread, and for the continual meat offering, and for the continual burnt offering, of the sabbaths, of the new moons, for the set feasts, and for the holy things, and for the sin offerings to make an atonement for Israel, and for all the work of the house of our God.

Notice the "continual" or daily. Then follows the weekly sabbaths, the monthly new moons, the seaonal festal (spring/fall)), and the ultimate "atonement" is on the Day of Atonement, which is yearly, again.

Your order is reversed.


Isaiah 1:13-14 -

Notice:

Isa 1:13 Bring no more vain oblations; incense is an abomination unto me; the new moons and sabbaths, the calling of assemblies, I cannot away with; it is iniquity, even the solemn meeting.
Isa 1:14 Your new moons and your appointed feasts my soul hateth: they are a trouble unto me; I am weary to bear them.

Isaiah is a little more interesting in that it is paralleled to itself. The "sabbaths" are specific to "appointed feasts" in their seaons, not the weekly 7th day the sabbath of the Lord. God would never tell His people to transgress His Law of Ten Commandments. however, He would make mention of those things which were to point forward to Christ Jesus that they were abusing.

Again this would teach, and increasing order, "new moons", "sabbaths (identified as those in the appointed feasts)".

Thus your order is reversed.



Ezekiel 45:17 -

This is what Paul cites in Colossians 2:16 and already demonstrated to not be as you stated, but also in reverse of what you stated.

Eze 45:17 And it shall be the prince's part to give burnt offerings, and meat offerings, and drink offerings, in the feasts, and in the new moons, and in the sabbaths, in all solemnities of the house of Israel: he shall prepare the sin offering, and the meat offering, and the burnt offering, and the peace offerings, to make reconciliation for the house of Israel.

See those replies. Again, it is in increasing order, daily (offerings), seasonal festal, monthly new moons, yearly sabbaths, all dealing with the sanctuary services as context showed.



Ezekiel 46:1-11 -

Notice, just an expansion of Ezekiel 45:17:

Eze 46:1 Thus saith the Lord GOD; The gate of the inner court that looketh toward the east shall be shut the six working days; but on the sabbath it shall be opened, and in the day of the new moon it shall be opened.
Eze 46:2 And the prince shall enter by the way of the porch of that gate without, and shall stand by the post of the gate, and the priests shall prepare his burnt offering and his peace offerings, and he shall worship at the threshold of the gate: then he shall go forth; but the gate shall not be shut until the evening.
Eze 46:3 Likewise the people of the land shall worship at the door of this gate before the LORD in the sabbaths and in the new moons.
Eze 46:4 And the burnt offering that the prince shall offer unto the LORD in the sabbath day shall be six lambs without blemish, and a ram without blemish.
Eze 46:5 And the meat offering shall be an ephah for a ram, and the meat offering for the lambs as he shall be able to give, and an hin of oil to an ephah.
Eze 46:6 And in the day of the new moon it shall be a young bullock without blemish, and six lambs, and a ram: they shall be without blemish.
Eze 46:7 And he shall prepare a meat offering, an ephah for a bullock, and an ephah for a ram, and for the lambs according as his hand shall attain unto, and an hin of oil to an ephah.
Eze 46:8 And when the prince shall enter, he shall go in by the way of the porch of that gate, and he shall go forth by the way thereof.
Eze 46:9 But when the people of the land shall come before the LORD in the solemn feasts, he that entereth in by the way of the north gate to worship shall go out by the way of the south gate; and he that entereth by the way of the south gate shall go forth by the way of the north gate: he shall not return by the way of the gate whereby he came in, but shall go forth over against it.
Eze 46:10 And the prince in the midst of them, when they go in, shall go in; and when they go forth, shall go forth.
Eze 46:11 And in the feasts and in the solemnities the meat offering shall be an ephah to a bullock, and an ephah to a ram, and to the lambs as he is able to give, and an hin of oil to an ephah.


Hosea 2:11

Notice:

Hos 2:11 I will also cause all her mirth to cease, her feast days, her new moons, and her sabbaths, and all her solemn feasts.

Context, "her sabbaths", which are "[their] sabbaths", and is not God's Sabbath (Genesis 2:1-3; Exodus 20:8-11), as shown earlier. The fulfillment of Daniel 9.

Dan 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

 

Who is confused? Who contradicts themselves? See for yourself, the facts and evidence are there fore anyone to read:

 

That would mean that the definition you have, the substance of Love God and neighbour is abolished, empty. You have only the husk of the words remaining, which, btw, again, are contexually OT, and connected to Ten Commandments, see Deut. 6:5, and Lev. 19:17-18 and their context (such as Deut 5, and "sin", etc).

 

You seem to be in direct contradiction to robycop3, and robycop3 in direct contradiction to yourself. What do you say of robycop3's answer and position then, in relation to your own?

How about it robycop3? What do you now say of 1689Dave's answer, correct or not?

 

1689Dave did. See previous post. What do you say to his replies?

 

That is a denial of what Seventh-day Adventists actually doctrinally teach. Ellen G White, who had the gift of prophecy, is to be tested according to the Law and the Testimony (scripture) before her. She must align with John, Peter, Paul, Jesus, Malachi, ... Daniel, Jeremiah, Isaiah ... Samuel, Joshua, Moses, Ten Commandments.

1Co_14:32 And the spirits of the prophets (NT) are subject to the prophets (OT).

To continually say otherwise beyond this point of demonstration is to then purposefully misrepresent the position.

 

Except he didn't just say "Sabbaths" "period". What he said was:

Col 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
Col 2:17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

He was citing Ezekiel 45:17:

Eze 45:17 And it shall be the prince's part to give burnt offerings, and meat offerings, and drink offerings, in the feasts, and in the new moons, and in the sabbaths, in all solemnities of the house of Israel: he shall prepare the sin offering, and the meat offering, and the burnt offering, and the peace offerings, to make reconciliation for the house of Israel.

Read Ezekiel 45 in all of its context,

Eze_45:14 Concerning the ordinance of oil, the bath of oil, ye shall offer the tenth part of a bath out of the cor, which is an homer of ten baths; for ten baths are an homer:

etc.

Paul's use of Ezekiel 45:17 is in both places contextual to "ordinances", and "shadow", and elsewhere "carnal" and "wordly" (Ephesians 2 and Hebrews 9-10).

Col 2:20 Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,

Therefore, it is not "sabbaths" and "period". It is limited to Paul's citation, and use. Even whole commentaries by non-Seventh-day Adventists were given you on this.

 

Actually No. It was created ("made") "for" the "man" (Adam) and all in him, and he was the type of Christ Jesus., who is the second Adam. Thus the Sabbath was made for Jesus Christ. See Colossians 1:16.

Israel had "forgotten" during their captivity, and needed Sabbath reform. It was thus told them to "Remember".

 

Why don't you guys convince them with the holy scriptures of Last Prophet Ellen G White?

 

John 7

22“For this reason Moses has given you circumcision (not because it is from Moses, but from the fathers), and on the Sabbath you circumcise a man. 23“If a man receives circumcision on the Sabbath so that the Law of Moses will not be broken, are you angry with Me because I made an entire man well on the Sabbath?

You can't keep Sabbath unless you are circumcised.

Listen this is about so the LAW of MOSES will not be broken.

Circumcision didn't start with Moses, Thats Abraham right? But you need to be circumcise else you break the Moses sabbath law.

Acts 15

1Some men came down from Judea and began teaching the brethren, “Unless you are circumcised according to the custom of Moses, you cannot be saved.”