Romans 11

Here is what I actually said:
10: Note the duration of the hardening appears to last the lifetime of the individuals hardened at that time, rather than the hardening of all Jews for an unspecified period of time. Thus the hardening ended many many years ago.

And here is what you said: The hardening will last until the fulness of elect Gentiles come in.

I indicated my view for the meaning of verse 10, only those unbelieving Jews alive at the time were hardened, but not all the Jews, thus a "partial hardening." The fullness of the Gentiles again refers to the Gentiles (non-Jews) impacted by the missionaries of Paul's time. The idea is the non-Jewish people that were added to the body of Christ at that time, i.e. the people used to "fill" the body of Christ from the non-Jews, and does not refer to "all the non-Jews through-out time.

And as to your erroneous view, that fullness refers to all the Gentiles through-out time: Nah

Now for your question: Why did God choose to "harden" the unbelieving Jews if they supposedly were already hardened from conception with "total spiritual inability?"

 

all flesh

 

You have gotten two thousand years ago, by my saying 'Jesus' Return'.

How about when He Returns Again?

John R. Rice knows what is my position, now.

So does Gill.

You will, too, when Jesus Comes.

 

I did not see an answer to the question of why did God harden the unbelieving Jews, if they had no ability to become believers?

We agree, not all Jews were hardened, so not at issue.

Where did you say all Gentiles through-out time? You did not, my error. How about all the elect Gentiles through-out time? This refers to the "fulness" of the Gentiles according to your understanding of the meaning of "fulness" i.e. all the elect Gentiles, from Paul's time to the end of the age.

No verse or passage say if a person does not initially accept the gospel, they are hardened such that they can never accept the gospel. When you make assertions like "the gospel and Word of God either brings mercy or brings hardening" please provide the scripture that makes that assertion.

Likewise, please provide the scripture that refers to "judicial hardening" and defines it as not actual hardening but simply means the person is not compelled to believe. That concept seems absurd.

 

Small problem - the Jews are only PART of israel. They're only 3 of the 12 tribes. The others are out there somewhere. While WE don't know who they are, GOD does.

Some jews incorrectly say the Jews are all of Israel, but Scripture says otherwise. Nowhere does it say the other 9 tribes became extinct. And nowhere does Scripture say "a Jew from the tribe of Dan", etc.

I'm not at all pushing "Armstrongism"(I believe ole Herbie was a quack); I'm pushing Scriptural truth.

 

God does not save by culture or race, he saves by his Amazing Grace... A true Jew is one inwardly, so I will go with scripture... God only saves those that are his... He is in the business of Salvation and brethren who think they have something to do with it ought to mind their own... Business that is!... God WILL save all his people just like he said he would!... Brother Glen

Romans 2:28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:

2:29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

 

So Glad4mercy, you have given up defending your bogus view, and have turned to ad hominems. Judicial hardening is a fiction, that is why you cannot reference support.

I do not believe you have ever understood Romans 11, based on the misrepresentations you made in the OP.

Romans 9 does indicate God hardens those of His choosing. Again demonstrating that "total spiritual inability" is a fiction, because if true scripture would say God softens those hardened as a consequence of the Fall. None of that is found in Romans 9 or anywhere else in scripture. Thus just another of the many fictions of the OP.

 

Alan,

I really did think that you took the Scripture veracity far more conservatively than what I am reading in this thread.

Do you take as factual what Paul said in Romans 11:

1I ask, then, has God rejected his people? By no means! For I myself am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, a member of the tribe of Benjamin. 2God has not rejected his people whom he foreknew.

Do you not know what the Scripture says of Elijah, how he appeals to God against Israel? 3“Lord, they have killed your prophets, they have demolished your altars, and I alone am left, and they seek my life.” 4But what is God’s reply to him? “I have kept for myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal.” 5So too at the present time there is a remnant, chosen by grace. 6But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace.
​

Now, you may hate the Jews, but God has chosen and not rejected them. Paul states that as fact. I believe that.

Do you take as factual what Paul said in Romans 11:

11So I ask, did they stumble in order that they might fall? By no means! Rather, through their trespass salvation has come to the Gentiles, so as to make Israel jealous. 12Now if their trespass means riches for the world, and if their failure means riches for the Gentiles, how much more will their full inclusion mean!​

Now you may hate the Jews, but God has chosen "their FULL inclusion."

17But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, although a wild olive shoot, were grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing root of the olive tree, 18do not be arrogant toward the branches. If you are, remember it is not you who support the root, but the root that supports you. 19Then you will say, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” 20That is true. They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you stand fast through faith. So do not become proud, but fear. 21For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you. 22Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God’s kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness. Otherwise you too will be cut off.23And even they, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God has the power to graft them in again. 24For if you were cut from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and grafted, contrary to nature, into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, the natural branches, be grafted back into their OWN olive tree.
​

Now you may hate the Jews, but God will graft them back into the root. Note that Paul states that you are not to be arrogant toward the broken off branches, you don't support the root, the root supports you. Therefore, do not be proud but fear, because if "God did not spare the NATURAL branches, NEITHER will he spare YOU.

Do you take Paul as being factual concerning the Jews as ALL are still elected by God as stated in Romans 11:

28As regards the gospel, they are enemies for your sake. But as regards election, they are beloved for the sake of their forefathers. 29For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. 30For just as you were at one time disobedient to God but now have received mercy because of their disobedience, 31so they too have now been disobedient in order that by the mercy shown to you they also may now receive mercy. 32For God has consigned all to disobedience, that he may have mercy on all.​

You may hate the Jews, but God has neither rejected, nor forsaken them. They will also, just as God promised in the prophets and clearly presented by Paul in Romans 11 be brought by the authority and power of God to receive mercy.


This is not the first post on this thread in which I have taken time to directly quote passages. You mocked the first. Will you mock this, too?

Are you so bold as to mock the very Scriptures?

 

Van,

1) Your scheme(s) are what are bogus, and you certainly are no stranger to ad hominem.

2) Romans 9 certainly indicates God hardens those of His choosing, which is directly supporting "total spiritual inability" in direct conflict with your often repeated presentation of some innate human capacity expressed in such a manner as to get God's attention and then upon His examination to verify it meets some level of righteousness and if it merits some level of recognition it might then be credited for salvation. Such a presentation (to use your own expression) is "twaddle."

3) The presentation of the OP is worthy of discussion, and some may disagree with a minor point or more, but for you to dismiss it outright as making misrepresentation of Romans 11 is just poor comprehension on a reader's part. Early in the thread your own expression of the meaning of Romans 11 was far less capable of veracity than that presented in the OP.

On a thread that I though you would rejoice....

 

Pay no attention to those who claim the Fall resulted in everyone being conceived with total spiritual inability. It is a complete fiction. Every time you see God hardening someone, that proves they needed to hardened, thus before being hardened, they had some limited spiritual ability. Do a study on how many times hardened appears in scripture. Ask yourself how Pharaoh could harden his heart if he had total spiritual inability? How could the practice of sin harden the heart if it had total spiritual inability?

 

I did. That sort of posting is just not proper for the BB.

It has no place and should not be allowed.

It is one thing to disagree strongly, even bring some accusation, but to state one worships the enemy of God is just wrong.

 

Romans11:1-10 analysis and commentary by Van.

1: His people refers to those chosen under the promise of the Old Covenant, believing Jews. Not all of the blood line descendants of Abraham.

2: His people (believing Jews) whom He foreknew (as part of the Old Covenant promise). Thus they were part of His previously formulated redemption plan under the Old Covenant Promise, not the Law.

3: Some of Abraham's descendants rejected God and killed His prophets. These were not part of "His people."

4: But from among the blood line descendants, God chose 7000 based on the condition of their faith in Him, for they had not bowed the knee to Baal.

5: At the time of Paul's writing of Romans, there had come to a a remnant, in the same way, or in other words according to God's choice of believing Jews.

6. An election based on faith is a gracious choice, and is not an election based on works.

7. Those seeking the promise by works were hardened, but those seeking the promise by faith were chosen. Note the timing of the choice, at the present time, rather than before creation.

8: The temporary hardening is as described in the OT.

9: The temporary hardening is as described elsewhere in the OT.

10: Note the duration of the hardening appears to last the lifetime of the individuals hardened at that time, rather than the hardening of all Jews for an unspecified period of time. Thus the hardening ended many many years ago.

As you can see, this is a radically different take on the passage. Study the passage and two very different views and see what fits with the actual scripture.

 

Van,

Rarely do I read something and come away thinking that what I read has no basis in the presentation of Scriptures.


1) There is NONE righteous, not a single person, ALL have sinned and COME SHORT. Therefore, there is no righteousness to be found, and not "spiritual ability" as you present.

2) The "hardening" by God does not preclude that they "needed hardening." Rather, the hardening is the confirmation of hardness into obstinacy. Pharaoh was already hard, and God made him obstinately so as seen by his repeated refusals.

3) You do not understand nor know how to properly apply the concept of spiritual inability and continue to bluster instead of some diminished capacity but never-the-less some innate righteous capacity to get God's attention by some measure of self appeal in which He then looks upon for merit and standing that He may credit that appeal and grant salvation is just so lacking in Scripture support.

And you claim others are presenting something bogus?

 

Pay no attention to this "change the subject" post, consisting of a denial of their total spiritual inability doctrine, and then agreeing that hardening precludes they were already hardened. If you have no ability, you would already be "obstinate." Just a post of nonsense. Ending as always with the outright utter false statement concerning "innate righteous capacity." No quote will be forthcoming because it is a complete falsehood that this poster posts again and again.