Romans 11

[Van]

sorry. I read the wrong post
ok, what I disagree with is this
you said the blindness lasts as long as the lives of those living and passed away long ago. It would follow from your argument that the fulness of the Gentiles has already come,( long ago)
nah....

Here is what I actually said:
10: Note the duration of the hardening appears to last the lifetime of the individuals hardened at that time, rather than the hardening of all Jews for an unspecified period of time. Thus the hardening ended many many years ago.

And here is what you said: The hardening will last until the fulness of elect Gentiles come in.

I indicated my view for the meaning of verse 10, only those unbelieving Jews alive at the time were hardened, but not all the Jews, thus a "partial hardening." The fullness of the Gentiles again refers to the Gentiles (non-Jews) impacted by the missionaries of Paul's time. The idea is the non-Jewish people that were added to the body of Christ at that time, i.e. the people used to "fill" the body of Christ from the non-Jews, and does not refer to "all the non-Jews through-out time.

And as to your erroneous view, that fullness refers to all the Gentiles through-out time: Nah

Now for your question: Why did God choose to "harden" the unbelieving Jews if they supposedly were already hardened from conception with "total spiritual inability?"

 

[glad4mercy]

Here is what I actually said:
10: Note the duration of the hardening appears to last the lifetime of the individuals hardened at that time, rather than the hardening of all Jews for an unspecified period of time. Thus the hardening ended many many years ago.

And here is what you said: The hardening will last until the fulness of elect Gentiles come in.

I indicated my view for the meaning of verse 10, only those unbelieving Jews alive at the time were hardened, but not all the Jews, thus a "partial hardening." The fullness of the Gentiles again refers to the Gentiles (non-Jews) impacted by the missionaries of Paul's time. The idea is the non-Jewish people that were added to the body of Christ at that time, i.e. the people used to "fill" the body of Christ from the non-Jews, and does not refer to "all the non-Jews through-out time.

And as to your erroneous view, that fullness refers to all the Gentiles through-out time: Nah

Now for your question: Why did God choose to "harden" the unbelieving Jews if they supposedly were already hardened from conception with "total spiritual inability?"

Partial hardening... not all hardened. There is a remnant was Paul’s point in blindness in part quote

Now where did I say all Gentiles throughout time? Perhaps all believing Gentiles.

last paragraph response. Judicial hardening is when God gives one over to their own unbelief. Like when Pharoah hardened his heart and then Godin turn hardened Pharoahs heart

the gospel and Word of God either brings mercy or brings hardening.

 

[Alan Gross]

NO, he put the sentiments of earlier exegetes of scripure. Like Beza and others for example

all flesh

 

[Alan Gross]

So your position is correct and everyone else's is wrong. Because NOBODY believes the fulness of the Gentiles was accomplished in two thousand years ago. No one that I know of at least.

You have gotten two thousand years ago, by my saying 'Jesus' Return'.

How about when He Returns Again?

John R. Rice knows what is my position, now.

So does Gill.

You will, too, when Jesus Comes.

 

[glad4mercy]

So Calvin, Sproul, Gill, Wesley, Rice, and I all worship satan. You're a hoot.

You have gotten two thousand years ago, by my saying 'Jesus' Return'.

How about when He Returns Again?

John R. Rice knows what is my position, now.

So does Gill.

You will, too, when Jesus Comes.

Sorry, I keep mixing you up with Van.

So who teaches "time of the Gentiles means Second Coming" besides you?

 

[glad4mercy]

a. John Piper Five Reasons I Believe Romans 11:26 Means a Future Conversion for Israel

NIV Romans 11:25… I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in. Who’s he talking to here? Well, we know from verse 13 that he is talking to the Gentiles. NIV Romans 11:13…I am talking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch as I am the apostle to the Gentiles, I make much of my ministry… What does he want them to avoid? Well, he wants them to avoid becoming conceited or “puffed up.” Now what does he mean by :Israel” in verse 25? Well, since he contrasts “Israel” with the “the Gentiles,” Israel must refer to the ethnic Jews or national “Israel.” If that is the case, then Paul is saying something like this, “Look here you Gentiles, I don’t want you to be uninformed and I certainly don’t want you to become puffed up. The Jews have experienced a hardening but that is only until the whole number of the Gentiles have been incorporated into the people of God.” And if that is the case, that is that Paul means the ethnic Jews when he refers to Israel in verse 25, then what does Israel mean in verse 26 when he says… NIV Romans 11:26… And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: "The deliverer will come from Zion; he will turn godlessness away from Jacob From the Teaching Ministry of Thomas R. Browning Arlington Presbyterian Church Page 17 November 30, 2003 Now I suppose he could have been talking about “ethnic Jews” in verse 25 and then switched to talk about “spiritual Israel” in verse 26. But the question is, really is, how likely would he have been to have done that. No, I don’t think it is likely at all. Now I freely admit that earlier in Romans Paul made the point that there is a spiritual Israel. NIV Romans 2:28…A man is not a Jew if he is only one outwardly, nor is circumcision merely outward and physical. 29 No, a man is a Jew if he is one inwardly; and circumcision is circumcision of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the written code. Such a man's praise is not from men, but from God. NIV Romans 9:6…It is not as though God's word had failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel. But I think when he uses he term “Israel” to refer to ethnic Israel in verse 25 and then uses the same term in verse 26 without qualifying it one way or another, you almost have to accept that it will have the same meaning in both places.10 When you do that all you are doing is interpreting the passage letting the immediate context guide you.11 And that is the point of Sproul, Boice and Hodge.12 Now if you view the passage that way, what it says is something like this, “As it stands right now ethnic Israel is hardened and they are hardened until all of the Gentiles that make up God’s elect are brought in and then at that point that will bring about the salvation of a vast array of Jews.” Now I have to add that is not the way Father Calvin viewed the passage. Still, I am not torn here; I am with Hodge, Sproul and Boice on this one. I think they are right. To me the immediate context demands that Paul be speaking about Israel From the Teaching Ministry of Thomas R. Browning Arlington Presbyterian Church Page 18 November 30, 2003

https://www.monergism.com/thethreshold/articles/onsite/mp3/071 Romans 11.11-36.pdf

 

[Van]

Partial hardening... not all hardened. There is a remnant was Paul’s point in blindness in part quote

Now where did I say all Gentiles throughout time? Perhaps all believing Gentiles.

last paragraph response. Judicial hardening is when God gives one over to their own unbelief. Like when Pharaoh hardened his heart and then God in turn hardened Pharaohs heart

the gospel and Word of God either brings mercy or brings hardening.

I did not see an answer to the question of why did God harden the unbelieving Jews, if they had no ability to become believers?

We agree, not all Jews were hardened, so not at issue.

Where did you say all Gentiles through-out time? You did not, my error. How about all the elect Gentiles through-out time? This refers to the "fulness" of the Gentiles according to your understanding of the meaning of "fulness" i.e. all the elect Gentiles, from Paul's time to the end of the age.

No verse or passage say if a person does not initially accept the gospel, they are hardened such that they can never accept the gospel. When you make assertions like "the gospel and Word of God either brings mercy or brings hardening" please provide the scripture that makes that assertion.

Likewise, please provide the scripture that refers to "judicial hardening" and defines it as not actual hardening but simply means the person is not compelled to believe. That concept seems absurd.

 

[robycop3]

Small problem - the Jews are only PART of israel. They're only 3 of the 12 tribes. The others are out there somewhere. While WE don't know who they are, GOD does.

Some jews incorrectly say the Jews are all of Israel, but Scripture says otherwise. Nowhere does it say the other 9 tribes became extinct. And nowhere does Scripture say "a Jew from the tribe of Dan", etc.

I'm not at all pushing "Armstrongism"(I believe ole Herbie was a quack); I'm pushing Scriptural truth.

 

[glad4mercy]

I did not see an answer to the question of why did God harden the unbelieving Jews, if they had no ability to become believers?

We agree, not all Jews were hardened, so not at issue.

Where did you say all Gentiles through-out time? You did not, my error. How about all the elect Gentiles through-out time? This refers to the "fulness" of the Gentiles according to your understanding of the meaning of "fulness" i.e. all the elect Gentiles, from Paul's time to the end of the age.

No verse or passage say if a person does not initially accept the gospel, they are hardened such that they can never accept the gospel. When you make assertions like "the gospel and Word of God either brings mercy or brings hardening" please provide the scripture that makes that assertion.

Likewise, please provide the scripture that refers to "judicial hardening" and defines it as not actual hardening but simply means the person is not compelled to believe. That concept seems absurd.

I did not see an answer to the question of why did God harden the unbelieving Jews, if they had no ability to become believers?

We agree, not all Jews were hardened, so not at issue.

Where did you say all Gentiles through-out time? You did not, my error. How about all the elect Gentiles through-out time? This refers to the "fulness" of the Gentiles according to your understanding of the meaning of "fulness" i.e. all the elect Gentiles, from Paul's time to the end of the age.

No verse or passage say if a person does not initially accept the gospel, they are hardened such that they can never accept the gospel. When you make assertions like "the gospel and Word of God either brings mercy or brings hardening" please provide the scripture that makes that assertion.

Likewise, please provide the scripture that refers to "judicial hardening" and defines it as not actual hardening but simply means the person is not compelled to believe. That concept seems absurd.

I explained hardening earlier. Read the posts.

Romans 11 explains why God hardened Israel, (except for the remnant).

Romans 9 says that God mercies whom He wills and hardens whom He will.

Romans 9 is where you will find judicial hardening. I will point you to the meat, but I will not feed it to you like a mother bird feeds a chick.

when’s the last time you read the entire book of Romans in one sitting and then went back and did a detailed study of it?

if you want to understand Romans 9-11, read the entire book of Romans several times in a short span. I read the entire book of Romans every day for about two weeks before I started exegete go it.

Then go back and exegete Romans 9-11 after reading just that section numerous times.

 

[glad4mercy]

Small problem - the Jews are only PART of israel. They're only 3 of the 12 tribes. The others are out there somewhere. While WE don't know who they are, GOD does.

Some jews incorrectly say the Jews are all of Israel, but Scripture says otherwise. Nowhere does it say the other 9 tribes became extinct. And nowhere does Scripture say "a Jew from the tribe of Dan", etc.

I'm not at all pushing "Armstrongism"(I believe ole Herbie was a quack); I'm pushing Scriptural truth.

in the New Testament, the word Jew is used interchangeably with the term “the circumcision”. Especially in Paul’s writings

 

[glad4mercy]

I tried to explain to glad4mercy that the word "until", as in Romans 11:25, tells you nothing about what comes later. But, he chooses to pretend otherwise. It doesn't mean "Ethnic Israel will be restored later." I even pointed out that Paul points to Jesus coming the first time to explain Romans 11:25, which was the past, not the future, but he didn't reply to that point: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in, and in this way all Israel will be saved. As it is written: “The deliverer will come from Zion..." I've done everything but tell him what the verse actually means. If I can't explain the meaning of "until" what chance is there to explain deeper things?

I tried to explain to glad4mercy that the word "until", as in Romans 11:25, tells you nothing about what comes later. But, he chooses to pretend otherwise. It doesn't mean "Ethnic Israel will be restored later." I even pointed out that Paul points to Jesus coming the first time to explain Romans 11:25, which was the past, not the future, but he didn't reply to that point: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in, and in this way all Israel will be saved. As it is written: “The deliverer will come from Zion..." I've done everything but tell him what the verse actually means. If I can't explain the meaning of "until" what chance is there to explain deeper things?

Do you mean Romans 11:26-27?

you mean you didn’t know that Paul was saying that Romans 11:25 was THE FULFILMENT of the prophecies cited in Romans 11:26-27?

those verses EXPLAIN Romans 11:25 only in the sense that Romans 11:25 is the FULLFILMENT of those scriptures!

and until always means up to a point a thing will continue and then cease.

 

[tyndale1946]

in the New Testament, the word Jew is used interchangeably with the term “the circumcision”. Especially in Paul’s writings

God does not save by culture or race, he saves by his Amazing Grace... A true Jew is one inwardly, so I will go with scripture... God only saves those that are his... He is in the business of Salvation and brethren who think they have something to do with it ought to mind their own... Business that is!... God WILL save all his people just like he said he would!... Brother Glen

Romans 2:28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:

2:29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

 

[Van]

I explained hardening earlier. Read the posts.

Romans 11 explains why God hardened Israel, (except for the remnant).

Romans 9 says that God mercies whom He wills and hardens whom He will.

Romans 9 is where you will find judicial hardening. I will point you to the meat, but I will not feed it to you like a mother bird feeds a chick.

when’s the last time you read the entire book of Romans in one sitting and then went back and did a detailed study of it?

if you want to understand Romans 9-11, read the entire book of Romans several times in a short span. I read the entire book of Romans every day for about two weeks before I started exegete go it.

Then go back and exegete Romans 9-11 after reading just that section numerous times.

So Glad4mercy, you have given up defending your bogus view, and have turned to ad hominems. Judicial hardening is a fiction, that is why you cannot reference support.

I do not believe you have ever understood Romans 11, based on the misrepresentations you made in the OP.

Romans 9 does indicate God hardens those of His choosing. Again demonstrating that "total spiritual inability" is a fiction, because if true scripture would say God softens those hardened as a consequence of the Fall. None of that is found in Romans 9 or anywhere else in scripture. Thus just another of the many fictions of the OP.

 

[agedman]

Oh my God.

Yeah, that's all misinterpretation of Old Testament Prophecy.

They speak of Israel and sometimes the Blessings of The Current Day of The Lord, then The Day of Vengence of our God, that is separated by a comma.

Israel is very often, 'The Spiritual seed of Abraham".

Their transitions can be abrupt, between their references to The Day of Salvation (now) and Eternity.

Certainly, expressing New Testament Truths, in Old Testament language makes for Wonderful Revelations.

Returning the Mosaic System of Sacrifices, that were representational and symbolic emblems, to start with, back to a restored Mosaic System of Sacrifices, not so much.

No Worship there.

No insight.

No Blessing.

Just pure junk.

...

Those notions do not grasp their Present Day Application, as New Testament Truths, couched and expressed in Old Testament language.

No wonder a pot load of God-Hating and denying Jews are said to jump up and get a Jesus, "Just before He Returns".

Yep.

All off, in the Literature reading.

Alan,

I really did think that you took the Scripture veracity far more conservatively than what I am reading in this thread.

Do you take as factual what Paul said in Romans 11:

1I ask, then, has God rejected his people? By no means! For I myself am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, a member of the tribe of Benjamin. 2God has not rejected his people whom he foreknew.

Do you not know what the Scripture says of Elijah, how he appeals to God against Israel? 3“Lord, they have killed your prophets, they have demolished your altars, and I alone am left, and they seek my life.” 4But what is God’s reply to him? “I have kept for myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal.” 5So too at the present time there is a remnant, chosen by grace. 6But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace.
​

Now, you may hate the Jews, but God has chosen and not rejected them. Paul states that as fact. I believe that.

Do you take as factual what Paul said in Romans 11:

11So I ask, did they stumble in order that they might fall? By no means! Rather, through their trespass salvation has come to the Gentiles, so as to make Israel jealous. 12Now if their trespass means riches for the world, and if their failure means riches for the Gentiles, how much more will their full inclusion mean!​

Now you may hate the Jews, but God has chosen "their FULL inclusion."

17But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, although a wild olive shoot, were grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing root of the olive tree, 18do not be arrogant toward the branches. If you are, remember it is not you who support the root, but the root that supports you. 19Then you will say, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” 20That is true. They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you stand fast through faith. So do not become proud, but fear. 21For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you. 22Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God’s kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness. Otherwise you too will be cut off.23And even they, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God has the power to graft them in again. 24For if you were cut from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and grafted, contrary to nature, into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, the natural branches, be grafted back into their OWN olive tree.
​

Now you may hate the Jews, but God will graft them back into the root. Note that Paul states that you are not to be arrogant toward the broken off branches, you don't support the root, the root supports you. Therefore, do not be proud but fear, because if "God did not spare the NATURAL branches, NEITHER will he spare YOU.

Do you take Paul as being factual concerning the Jews as ALL are still elected by God as stated in Romans 11:

28As regards the gospel, they are enemies for your sake. But as regards election, they are beloved for the sake of their forefathers. 29For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. 30For just as you were at one time disobedient to God but now have received mercy because of their disobedience, 31so they too have now been disobedient in order that by the mercy shown to you they also may now receive mercy. 32For God has consigned all to disobedience, that he may have mercy on all.​

You may hate the Jews, but God has neither rejected, nor forsaken them. They will also, just as God promised in the prophets and clearly presented by Paul in Romans 11 be brought by the authority and power of God to receive mercy.


This is not the first post on this thread in which I have taken time to directly quote passages. You mocked the first. Will you mock this, too?

Are you so bold as to mock the very Scriptures?

 

[agedman]

So Glad4mercy, you have given up defending your bogus view, and have turned to ad hominems. Judicial hardening is a fiction, that is why you cannot reference support.

I do not believe you have ever understood Romans 11, based on the misrepresentations you made in the OP.

Romans 9 does indicate God hardens those of His choosing. Again demonstrating that "total spiritual inability" is a fiction, because if true scripture would say God softens those hardened as a consequence of the Fall. None of that is found in Romans 9 or anywhere else in scripture. Thus just another of the many fictions of the OP.

Van,

1) Your scheme(s) are what are bogus, and you certainly are no stranger to ad hominem.

2) Romans 9 certainly indicates God hardens those of His choosing, which is directly supporting "total spiritual inability" in direct conflict with your often repeated presentation of some innate human capacity expressed in such a manner as to get God's attention and then upon His examination to verify it meets some level of righteousness and if it merits some level of recognition it might then be credited for salvation. Such a presentation (to use your own expression) is "twaddle."

3) The presentation of the OP is worthy of discussion, and some may disagree with a minor point or more, but for you to dismiss it outright as making misrepresentation of Romans 11 is just poor comprehension on a reader's part. Early in the thread your own expression of the meaning of Romans 11 was far less capable of veracity than that presented in the OP.

On a thread that I though you would rejoice....

 

[Van]

Pay no attention to those who claim the Fall resulted in everyone being conceived with total spiritual inability. It is a complete fiction. Every time you see God hardening someone, that proves they needed to hardened, thus before being hardened, they had some limited spiritual ability. Do a study on how many times hardened appears in scripture. Ask yourself how Pharaoh could harden his heart if he had total spiritual inability? How could the practice of sin harden the heart if it had total spiritual inability?

 

[agedman]

I was just about to report you, but I chose not to. Try to stick with the rules of this website.

I did. That sort of posting is just not proper for the BB.

It has no place and should not be allowed.

It is one thing to disagree strongly, even bring some accusation, but to state one worships the enemy of God is just wrong.

 

[Van]

Romans11:1-10 analysis and commentary by Van.

1: His people refers to those chosen under the promise of the Old Covenant, believing Jews. Not all of the blood line descendants of Abraham.

2: His people (believing Jews) whom He foreknew (as part of the Old Covenant promise). Thus they were part of His previously formulated redemption plan under the Old Covenant Promise, not the Law.

3: Some of Abraham's descendants rejected God and killed His prophets. These were not part of "His people."

4: But from among the blood line descendants, God chose 7000 based on the condition of their faith in Him, for they had not bowed the knee to Baal.

5: At the time of Paul's writing of Romans, there had come to a a remnant, in the same way, or in other words according to God's choice of believing Jews.

6. An election based on faith is a gracious choice, and is not an election based on works.

7. Those seeking the promise by works were hardened, but those seeking the promise by faith were chosen. Note the timing of the choice, at the present time, rather than before creation.

8: The temporary hardening is as described in the OT.

9: The temporary hardening is as described elsewhere in the OT.

10: Note the duration of the hardening appears to last the lifetime of the individuals hardened at that time, rather than the hardening of all Jews for an unspecified period of time. Thus the hardening ended many many years ago.

As you can see, this is a radically different take on the passage. Study the passage and two very different views and see what fits with the actual scripture.

 

[agedman]

Pay no attention to those who claim the Fall resulted in everyone being conceived with total spiritual inability. It is a complete fiction. Every time you see God hardening someone, that proves they needed to hardened, thus before being hardened, they had some limited spiritual ability. Do a study on how many times hardened appears in scripture. Ask yourself how Pharaoh could harden his heart if he had total spiritual inability? How could the practice of sin harden the heart if it had total spiritual inability?

Van,

Rarely do I read something and come away thinking that what I read has no basis in the presentation of Scriptures.


1) There is NONE righteous, not a single person, ALL have sinned and COME SHORT. Therefore, there is no righteousness to be found, and not "spiritual ability" as you present.

2) The "hardening" by God does not preclude that they "needed hardening." Rather, the hardening is the confirmation of hardness into obstinacy. Pharaoh was already hard, and God made him obstinately so as seen by his repeated refusals.

3) You do not understand nor know how to properly apply the concept of spiritual inability and continue to bluster instead of some diminished capacity but never-the-less some innate righteous capacity to get God's attention by some measure of self appeal in which He then looks upon for merit and standing that He may credit that appeal and grant salvation is just so lacking in Scripture support.

And you claim others are presenting something bogus?

 

[Van]

Van,

Rarely do I read something and come away thinking that what I read has no basis in the presentation of Scriptures.


1) There is NONE righteous, not a single person, ALL have sinned and COME SHORT. Therefore, there is no righteousness to be found, and not "spiritual ability" as you present.

2) The "hardening" by God does not preclude that they "needed hardening." Rather, the hardening is the confirmation of hardness into obstinacy. Pharaoh was already hard, and God made him obstinately so as seen by his repeated refusals.

3) You do not understand nor know how to properly apply the concept of spiritual inability and continue to bluster instead of some diminished capacity but never-the-less some innate righteous capacity to get God's attention by some measure of self appeal in which He then looks upon for merit and standing that He may credit that appeal and grant salvation is just so lacking in Scripture support.

And you claim others are presenting something bogus?

Pay no attention to this "change the subject" post, consisting of a denial of their total spiritual inability doctrine, and then agreeing that hardening precludes they were already hardened. If you have no ability, you would already be "obstinate." Just a post of nonsense. Ending as always with the outright utter false statement concerning "innate righteous capacity." No quote will be forthcoming because it is a complete falsehood that this poster posts again and again.