Reformed1689
Well-Known Member
Where do we have any support in Scripture for this? We don't. Is this not heresy?
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You can be saved without the Gospel???
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Where do we have any support in Scripture for this? We don't. Is this not heresy?
What's gospel according to you?
Reformed1689
Well-Known Member
Why are you trying to deflect from the OP?
Alan Gross
Well-Known Member
Folks in religion very rarely know:
What The Gospel is.
How God Saves souls.
That souls are lost.
That lost souls and God are different.
& lost religious people know not
That 5 billion things:
without God or the Spirit Wrough Conviction of sin and God Revealing HIS SON WHO DIED BECAUSE OF THE SIN THAT IS ETERNALLY AGAINST THE PERFECT HOLINESS OF GOD, Through The Bible Message and Preaching of The Gospel,...
... are not 'salvation', do not lead to 'salvation', and leave lost religiously deceived souls where they were, before hearing, "repeat after me, if you don't want to go to hell",... LOST.
If he is espousing that one can be saved without the gospel then yes it is heresy.
Alan Gross
Well-Known Member
I know you have been Taught extremely well, PRAISE JESUS CHRIST GOD ALMIGHTY.
Do you want to 'wait and see', if this crowd comes up with the answer to what The Gospel is?
I hope it's not, "if you say you are the word 'Christian', then you have a future home in Heaven."
Please, no.
Reformed1689
Well-Known Member
No, what I am waiting to see if people here honestly believe you can be saved without hearing about the good news of Christ as the quote I posted in the OP seems to suggest. I condemn it as heresy if that is what he is suggesting.
Alan Gross
Well-Known Member
Noone has ever been Saved that wasn't lost.
That is possibly an Eternally Fatal flaw I see here on the Board several times a day.
The Book includes a Schoolmaster associated with The Universal Moral Law of The Thrice Holy Godhead that Existed Forever, and Would Have Existed Perfectly Holy, IF WE HAD NEVER BEEN CREATED.
That Law is The Administration Death and Accomplishes an ALMIGHTY Revelation in The Process of God's Plan of Eternal Salvation, and that is that when we look at His Law DO WE SEE OURSELVES AS EQUAL IN PERFECT HOLINESS TO THE ETERNAL GOD OF THE UNIVERSE?
IF "YES". Then 'salvation' can be imagines to be 'selling flowers by the road will get you in", or any other Eternally Fatal Heresy.
IF "NO". THEN PAYMENT WILL BE EXACTED.
That is possibly an Eternally Fatal flaw I see here on the Board several times a day.
The Book includes a Schoolmaster associated with The Universal Moral Law of The Thrice Holy Godhead that Existed Forever, and Would Have Existed Perfectly Holy, IF WE HAD NEVER BEEN CREATED.
That Law is The Administration Death and Accomplishes an ALMIGHTY Revelation in The Process of God's Plan of Eternal Salvation, and that is that when we look at His Law DO WE SEE OURSELVES AS EQUAL IN PERFECT HOLINESS TO THE ETERNAL GOD OF THE UNIVERSE?
IF "YES". Then 'salvation' can be imagines to be 'selling flowers by the road will get you in", or any other Eternally Fatal Heresy.
IF "NO". THEN PAYMENT WILL BE EXACTED.
Alan Gross
Well-Known Member
Alan Gross
Well-Known Member
Reference: The Scofield Restoration of The Jews Heresy is a false gospel.
Philip Mauro : The Hope of Israel (1922) Free Online Books @ PreteristArchive.com, The Internet's Only Balanced Look at Preterism and Preterist Eschatology
"THE NATURE AND IMPORTANCE OF THE QUESTION.
The writer seeks, at the very outset of this study, to impress the reader with the immense importance of the question we are about to examine.
It is not merely a question of the true explanation of prophecies concerning the Jews, the Gentiles and of the Church of God, however so interesting and important these may be, for one may entertain mistaken ideas as to such matters without harmful consequences.
But it is far otherwise with the question discussed in this volume ; for the truth concerning the gospel of Christ and the salvation of man is involved in it.
And specially, the work of evangelization of the Jews (which, in the opinion of many, including the present writer, the coming of the Lord awaits) is vitally affected by it.
What lies directly in the path of our present inquiry is a system of doctrine which, though of recent origin, is now accepted amongst strictly orthodox Christians, "Fundamentalists", according to which doctrinal system the promise of God to Israel through their prophets was that the coming Messiah would restore the earthly kingdom to Israel, would give it a glory far surpassing that of the days of David and Solomon, and would exalt the Jewish nation to the place of supremacy over the nations of the world.
The leading authority for this new system of teaching states it thus: "When Christ appeared to the Jewish people, the next thing in the order of revelation as it then stood should have been the setting up of the Davidic kingdom" (Scofield Ref. Bible).
We propose in the present volume to bring this radical statement to the test of Scripture; for it is subversive of the Christian faith, in that it removes the sacrifice of the Lamb of God from its central place in God's eternal plan (Rev 13:8).
It cannot be that those who accept this radical doctrine realize what is involved in it.
It is easy for the writer to believe this, because he himself at one time accepted that doctrine without the faintest idea that it involved the denial of important truth.
But in course of time, after prolonged study of the Word of God, he was compelled to acknowledge, upon the testimony of the New Testament Scriptures (particularly that of the apostle Paul) that, not only is the doctrine under consideration directly contrary to the Scriptures, but it is the setting up, for the benefit of a future generation of Jews, of another hope, different from the "one hope" of the gospel of Christ; that, in other words it is "another gospel," the very thing against which Paul utters that tremendously solemn warning of Galatians 1:8,9.
Because of this, and because also of the great benefits that have followed the writer's deliverance from the "strange" doctrine referred to above, he deems it a duty to all the household of faith to bring to their attention, by every available means, the true teaching of the Bible touching the future of the Jewish people.
It is with a view to the performance of that duty that these pages are written.
What then is the true and biblical "Hope of Israel"?
To obtain a full answer to this question it is necessary that we search the Scriptures from beginning to end.
But in order merely that we may have in mind a general idea of the answer while we pursue our study, it will suffice to refer to a few incidents in Paul's ministry, as recorded in the last chapters of Acts.
The subject is very prominent there, and indeed it was because of Paul's views and his preaching in regard thereto that he was furiously persecuted by the Jews, and was finally sent in chains to Rome.
For we have his own testimony to "the chief of the Jews" at Rome, to whom, when he had called them together, he said: "For this cause therefore have I called for you, to see you and to speak with you; because that, for the hope of Israel I am bound with this chain" (Acts 28:17-20).
Inasmuch as what Paul had been preaching, both to the Jews and also to the Gentiles, was the gospel of Jesus Christ, and nothing else, it follows that the true "hope of Israel" is an essential part of that gospel; and therefore it is a matter regarding which we cannot afford to be mistaken.
The above quoted statement of Paul to the Jewish leaders at the imperial city is very illuminating.
It shows, to begin with, that, whatever it was he had been preaching as "the hope of Israel," it was something so contrary to the current Jewish notion thereof that it caused the people to clamour for his death (Acts 22:22), and led to his being formally accused before the Roman Governor as "a pestilent fellow, and a mover of sedition among all the Jews throughout the world" (Id. 24:5).
Had he been preaching what the Jews themselves believed to be, and what their rabbis had given them as, the true interpretation of the prophecies (namely, that God's promise to Israel was a kingdom of earthly character which should have dominion over all the world) they would have heard him with intense satisfaction.
But what Paul and all the apostles preached was, that what God had promised afore by His prophets in the Holy Scriptures was a kingdom over which Jesus Christ of the seed of David should reign in resurrection, a kingdom which flesh and blood cannot inherit, a kingdom which does not clash with the duly constituted governments of this world, and one into which the Gentiles are called upon terms of perfect equality with Jews (Acts 13:23, 34; Acts 17:2,3,7; Rom. 1:1-4; 14:17; 1 Cor. 15:50; 1 Pet. 1:12; cf. Luke 24:26).
Thus the teaching of Christ and His apostles in respect to the vitally important subject of the Kingdom of God, the hope of Israel, came into violent collision with that of the leaders of Israel; and because of this He was crucified and they were persecuted.
It was not a question then, any more than it is a question now, whether or not the prophets of Israel were the mouthpieces of God; for the Jewish rabbis, as well as Christ and His apostles, held firmly to the full inspiration of "the scriptures of the prophets."
It was solely a question then, as it is solely a question now, as to how those prophecies are to be understood - a question of interpretation.
The Jewish teachers understood the scriptures, and still interpret them, in what is now (wrongly) called the "literal" sense (i.e. that "Israel" is an earthly people, "Zion" an earthly locality, "Christ" an earthly conqueror, like David, etc., etc.) ; but Paul declared, when speaking of Jesus Christ in one of their synagogues, that it was
"because they knew Him not, nor yet the voices of the prophets which are read every Sabbath day, that they have fulfilled them in condemning Him" (Acts 13:27).
Philip Mauro : The Hope of Israel (1922) Free Online Books @ PreteristArchive.com, The Internet's Only Balanced Look at Preterism and Preterist Eschatology
"THE NATURE AND IMPORTANCE OF THE QUESTION.
The writer seeks, at the very outset of this study, to impress the reader with the immense importance of the question we are about to examine.
It is not merely a question of the true explanation of prophecies concerning the Jews, the Gentiles and of the Church of God, however so interesting and important these may be, for one may entertain mistaken ideas as to such matters without harmful consequences.
But it is far otherwise with the question discussed in this volume ; for the truth concerning the gospel of Christ and the salvation of man is involved in it.
And specially, the work of evangelization of the Jews (which, in the opinion of many, including the present writer, the coming of the Lord awaits) is vitally affected by it.
What lies directly in the path of our present inquiry is a system of doctrine which, though of recent origin, is now accepted amongst strictly orthodox Christians, "Fundamentalists", according to which doctrinal system the promise of God to Israel through their prophets was that the coming Messiah would restore the earthly kingdom to Israel, would give it a glory far surpassing that of the days of David and Solomon, and would exalt the Jewish nation to the place of supremacy over the nations of the world.
The leading authority for this new system of teaching states it thus: "When Christ appeared to the Jewish people, the next thing in the order of revelation as it then stood should have been the setting up of the Davidic kingdom" (Scofield Ref. Bible).
We propose in the present volume to bring this radical statement to the test of Scripture; for it is subversive of the Christian faith, in that it removes the sacrifice of the Lamb of God from its central place in God's eternal plan (Rev 13:8).
It cannot be that those who accept this radical doctrine realize what is involved in it.
It is easy for the writer to believe this, because he himself at one time accepted that doctrine without the faintest idea that it involved the denial of important truth.
But in course of time, after prolonged study of the Word of God, he was compelled to acknowledge, upon the testimony of the New Testament Scriptures (particularly that of the apostle Paul) that, not only is the doctrine under consideration directly contrary to the Scriptures, but it is the setting up, for the benefit of a future generation of Jews, of another hope, different from the "one hope" of the gospel of Christ; that, in other words it is "another gospel," the very thing against which Paul utters that tremendously solemn warning of Galatians 1:8,9.
Because of this, and because also of the great benefits that have followed the writer's deliverance from the "strange" doctrine referred to above, he deems it a duty to all the household of faith to bring to their attention, by every available means, the true teaching of the Bible touching the future of the Jewish people.
It is with a view to the performance of that duty that these pages are written.
What then is the true and biblical "Hope of Israel"?
To obtain a full answer to this question it is necessary that we search the Scriptures from beginning to end.
But in order merely that we may have in mind a general idea of the answer while we pursue our study, it will suffice to refer to a few incidents in Paul's ministry, as recorded in the last chapters of Acts.
The subject is very prominent there, and indeed it was because of Paul's views and his preaching in regard thereto that he was furiously persecuted by the Jews, and was finally sent in chains to Rome.
For we have his own testimony to "the chief of the Jews" at Rome, to whom, when he had called them together, he said: "For this cause therefore have I called for you, to see you and to speak with you; because that, for the hope of Israel I am bound with this chain" (Acts 28:17-20).
Inasmuch as what Paul had been preaching, both to the Jews and also to the Gentiles, was the gospel of Jesus Christ, and nothing else, it follows that the true "hope of Israel" is an essential part of that gospel; and therefore it is a matter regarding which we cannot afford to be mistaken.
The above quoted statement of Paul to the Jewish leaders at the imperial city is very illuminating.
It shows, to begin with, that, whatever it was he had been preaching as "the hope of Israel," it was something so contrary to the current Jewish notion thereof that it caused the people to clamour for his death (Acts 22:22), and led to his being formally accused before the Roman Governor as "a pestilent fellow, and a mover of sedition among all the Jews throughout the world" (Id. 24:5).
Had he been preaching what the Jews themselves believed to be, and what their rabbis had given them as, the true interpretation of the prophecies (namely, that God's promise to Israel was a kingdom of earthly character which should have dominion over all the world) they would have heard him with intense satisfaction.
But what Paul and all the apostles preached was, that what God had promised afore by His prophets in the Holy Scriptures was a kingdom over which Jesus Christ of the seed of David should reign in resurrection, a kingdom which flesh and blood cannot inherit, a kingdom which does not clash with the duly constituted governments of this world, and one into which the Gentiles are called upon terms of perfect equality with Jews (Acts 13:23, 34; Acts 17:2,3,7; Rom. 1:1-4; 14:17; 1 Cor. 15:50; 1 Pet. 1:12; cf. Luke 24:26).
Thus the teaching of Christ and His apostles in respect to the vitally important subject of the Kingdom of God, the hope of Israel, came into violent collision with that of the leaders of Israel; and because of this He was crucified and they were persecuted.
It was not a question then, any more than it is a question now, whether or not the prophets of Israel were the mouthpieces of God; for the Jewish rabbis, as well as Christ and His apostles, held firmly to the full inspiration of "the scriptures of the prophets."
It was solely a question then, as it is solely a question now, as to how those prophecies are to be understood - a question of interpretation.
The Jewish teachers understood the scriptures, and still interpret them, in what is now (wrongly) called the "literal" sense (i.e. that "Israel" is an earthly people, "Zion" an earthly locality, "Christ" an earthly conqueror, like David, etc., etc.) ; but Paul declared, when speaking of Jesus Christ in one of their synagogues, that it was
"because they knew Him not, nor yet the voices of the prophets which are read every Sabbath day, that they have fulfilled them in condemning Him" (Acts 13:27).
Being reformed then you must believe this true. Hearing the gospel implies people can have faith before Salvation. But wait reformers believe men are dead spiritually and can't hear or understand the gospel. So reformers are saved with out the understanding of the gospel. So are you admitting you are heretical?
MB
Reformed1689
Well-Known Member
The only issue is infants who die. I've heard some calvinists say they believe all infants who die before they can comprehend the gospel cannot be saved. Others believe that only elect infants go to heaven, and are somehow saved without accepting the gospel. Others say some infants receive the gospel spiritually in some way and are saved. Others say all infants are the elect. Definitely no consensus.
Regarding adults, I believe Scripture is clear. They must seek and place their trust in the Gospel brought by a preacher to be saved.
All that said, if some Christians are confused about this, I'm not inclined to hit them with a heresy charge. I would rather just correct them.
Regarding adults, I believe Scripture is clear. They must seek and place their trust in the Gospel brought by a preacher to be saved.
All that said, if some Christians are confused about this, I'm not inclined to hit them with a heresy charge. I would rather just correct them.
Reformed1689
Well-Known Member
Something is either heresy or it isn't. It's not a matter of "not inclined to hit them with a charge." Heresy is heresy.
Agree. I don't think confusion on this issue is heresy. I think you're being a little overdramatic (though I believe your position is correct).
I don't think a person can be saved without the Gospel, but I entertain the possibility that God could reveal The Gospel to man outside of The presentation of The Word.
Ie. dream, vision, etc.
Reformed1689
Well-Known Member
We actually have evidence of that in Scripture. Cornelius. But someone was still sent to him with the Gospel.
Reformed1689
Well-Known Member
Overdramatic? Surely you jest.
Exactly. I think of the angel in revelation that flew over the earth preaching the gospel (whatever exactly that meant).
Not trying that at all. Do you not know yourself what the Gospel is? Is that why you are trying to deflect from my question?
I know that my question is a little harder to answer than it may seem, but you should think on it.
I will directly answer your op which takes roby out of context, but I am very busy at work and rarely have time for lengthy replies until the evening.
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