ROBERTGUWAPO
Member
If good works are a sign of genuine faith, then "how many" good works are needed? (Or, how much good works do we need to show for, to say that our faith is genuine?)
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What "amount" of Good Works validate Faith?
- Thread starter ROBERTGUWAPO
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mailmandan
Active Member
I don't see a set amount of good works for everyone as being required for demonstrating genuine faith. Although all genuine believers are fruitful, not all are equally fruitful. (Matthew 13:23) The apostle Paul had numerous good works to show as a sign of genuine faith after his conversion, yet the thief on the cross died the same day of his conversion and only had time to rebuke the other thief, admit his guilt and ask Jesus to remember him when He comes into His kingdom to demonstrate genuine faith. (Luke 23:39-43)
Paul states that believers are to perform good works (Ephesians 2:10). Nowhere in the Bible do we see a quantity attached to good works, nor are good works to be paraded in front of others in order to evaluate them. Sometimes good works will be unseen and do not merit widespread notice. Perhaps you are praying for someone or you deliver a meal. Few people may know about it. Other times your actions may be observed by others but that was not your intent. The principle that rules good works is our attitude towards them. Consider what our Lord had to say:
Matthew 6:1-61 “Beware of practicing your righteousness before men to be noticed by them; otherwise you have no reward with your Father who is in heaven.
2 “So when you give to the poor, do not sound a trumpet before you, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, so that they may be honored by men. Truly I say to you, they have their reward in full. 3 But when you give to the poor, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing, 4 so that your giving will be in secret; and your Father who sees what is done in secret will reward you.
5 “When you pray, you are not to be like the hypocrites; for they love to stand and pray in the synagogues and on the street corners so that they may be seen by men. Truly I say to you, they have their reward in full. 6 But you, when you pray, go into your inner room, close your door and pray to your Father who is in secret, and your Father who sees what is done in secret will reward you.
In short, do good as you have means and opportunity to do good. Bless others. Pray for them. Sacrificially give. Give of your time as well as your money. Do not worry about keeping a scorecard because grace does not work that way.
Personally I do not do good works for the approval of man. Truthfully I do them because I love to help other people not just Christians. There is special rewards for those good works done in secret. Many like to show other men they are doing great things for others but again the greatest of these is in secret. Sort of like not letting the left hand know what the right hand is doing.
MB
Scripture tells us to examine ourselves periodically (at communion) to see if we are "of the faith." Therefore, as long as we are physically alive we are to test ourselves. We are to look at our own fruit. And if we find we bear no fruit, such as fruit of the Spirit, we should question whether we really have gone "all in" for Christ.
And as pointed out many times, good works provide proof of our salvation, good works does not provide nor sustain salvation. We are kept by the power of God, 1 Peter 1:3-5.
And as pointed out many times, good works provide proof of our salvation, good works does not provide nor sustain salvation. We are kept by the power of God, 1 Peter 1:3-5.
For one, deacons are called to hold to the faith with a clean conscience as a requirement of service in the church. (1 Timothy 3:9)
Two, the New Testament often warns all believers to not sin intentionally. A synonym might be "defiantly" from Numbers 15:30.
Three, look at the words of scripture. Matthew 25:31-46 is a sobering example of what good works look like. So is Lazarus and the Rich Man in Luke 16:19-31. The bible has several other examples as well.
Lastly, we will err and thus sin. But we must know sin is that wrong, that we repent and confess our sins, and get back to the treadmill of our race of faith. Look at David, he sinned big but repented big.
Two, the New Testament often warns all believers to not sin intentionally. A synonym might be "defiantly" from Numbers 15:30.
Three, look at the words of scripture. Matthew 25:31-46 is a sobering example of what good works look like. So is Lazarus and the Rich Man in Luke 16:19-31. The bible has several other examples as well.
Lastly, we will err and thus sin. But we must know sin is that wrong, that we repent and confess our sins, and get back to the treadmill of our race of faith. Look at David, he sinned big but repented big.
"But we must ....
We must or what, lose our salvation and end up in Hades?
What if a person is not saved? They do not lose salvation, they never had it. But, warned by their own lack of fruit, they could repent and go all in for Christ.
What if a person is saved. They do not lose their "E" ticket to the kingdom. But as one escaping from a fire, they do not enter "abundantly." If we really are devoted to Christ, we will seek to earn rewards by striving to become Christ-like and to effectively serve in Christ's ministry
We must or what, lose our salvation and end up in Hades?
What if a person is not saved? They do not lose salvation, they never had it. But, warned by their own lack of fruit, they could repent and go all in for Christ.
What if a person is saved. They do not lose their "E" ticket to the kingdom. But as one escaping from a fire, they do not enter "abundantly." If we really are devoted to Christ, we will seek to earn rewards by striving to become Christ-like and to effectively serve in Christ's ministry
Craig Betts
Member
For what it's worth, here is my take on this. My wife and I have been studying the related passage in James for quite some time. Bottom line is this:
1. We are not saved by anything except faith and belief in the gospel message and also the fact that we acknowledge that we are sinners who deserve God's punishment - this is repentance a changing of the mind about who we think we are and how we see ourselves in God's eyes. Eph 2:8-9
2. No amount of good works is proof of salvation because you can't look at your good works to prove you are saved. You look at Christ and you believe the gospel and accept it - not just mental assent - you actually believe it and you truly desire to have a new birth through the work of Christ to redeem you. But it is totally of faith, not works. You can't stand before God and tell him how many good things you did in order to prove you were saved. My unsaved neighbor does just as many good works as I do, but he's not saved - he's never trusted and believed in the gospel message.
3. Good works are proof of sanctification, not justification. You are justified by faith, not by the keeping of the law (good works). The Galatians were guilty of this very thing. Our good works are simply the fruit of the Holy Spirit living inside us. They prove that we are disciples/followers of Christ, but they do not prove that we are justified. We obey and do good works because of our love for Christ. We are no longer under the law and condemnation. We are now free to obey Christ and to not be slaves to sin. Our obedience is born out of our love and gratitude for the amazing exchange that took place in our souls when we trusted Christ and His gospel.
4. If you look to good works to prove you are saved, then you must ask yourself "How many good works do I need to do before I am considered to be "saved?". Where is the line between having too little or a sufficient amount of good deeds before you are considered a christian? This is why so many people doubt their salvation. They are looking to their good works as proof, and those good works are not proof of being justified. If a Christian is not producing good works, then we need to come along side them and open the scriptures and explain to them what God desires of them for sanctification and growth. If they truly understand the gospel, they will start to grow. However, that growth rate is going to look different for everyone. Only God knows those who are truly His. That is for Him to decide, not us. If a person tells me they are saved but they have no fruit, then I will lovingly challenge them to start reading the clear passages in the Word that instruct God's children how to behave themselves. For sure, if you are God's child, He will not allow you to continue in carnality without some kind of consequence. And what do you do with the person who accepts Christ and the next day is in a car accident or finally succumbs to cancer? They didn't have time to accumulate any good works. Were they saved or not? The thief on the cross had no time either. Was he saved or not?? Jesus told him that he'd be in Paradise with Him.
1. We are not saved by anything except faith and belief in the gospel message and also the fact that we acknowledge that we are sinners who deserve God's punishment - this is repentance a changing of the mind about who we think we are and how we see ourselves in God's eyes. Eph 2:8-9
2. No amount of good works is proof of salvation because you can't look at your good works to prove you are saved. You look at Christ and you believe the gospel and accept it - not just mental assent - you actually believe it and you truly desire to have a new birth through the work of Christ to redeem you. But it is totally of faith, not works. You can't stand before God and tell him how many good things you did in order to prove you were saved. My unsaved neighbor does just as many good works as I do, but he's not saved - he's never trusted and believed in the gospel message.
3. Good works are proof of sanctification, not justification. You are justified by faith, not by the keeping of the law (good works). The Galatians were guilty of this very thing. Our good works are simply the fruit of the Holy Spirit living inside us. They prove that we are disciples/followers of Christ, but they do not prove that we are justified. We obey and do good works because of our love for Christ. We are no longer under the law and condemnation. We are now free to obey Christ and to not be slaves to sin. Our obedience is born out of our love and gratitude for the amazing exchange that took place in our souls when we trusted Christ and His gospel.
4. If you look to good works to prove you are saved, then you must ask yourself "How many good works do I need to do before I am considered to be "saved?". Where is the line between having too little or a sufficient amount of good deeds before you are considered a christian? This is why so many people doubt their salvation. They are looking to their good works as proof, and those good works are not proof of being justified. If a Christian is not producing good works, then we need to come along side them and open the scriptures and explain to them what God desires of them for sanctification and growth. If they truly understand the gospel, they will start to grow. However, that growth rate is going to look different for everyone. Only God knows those who are truly His. That is for Him to decide, not us. If a person tells me they are saved but they have no fruit, then I will lovingly challenge them to start reading the clear passages in the Word that instruct God's children how to behave themselves. For sure, if you are God's child, He will not allow you to continue in carnality without some kind of consequence. And what do you do with the person who accepts Christ and the next day is in a car accident or finally succumbs to cancer? They didn't have time to accumulate any good works. Were they saved or not? The thief on the cross had no time either. Was he saved or not?? Jesus told him that he'd be in Paradise with Him.
How do you incorporate church discipline into your perspective? That is how the Reformation rebaptizers knew you were not straying. They knew you to be upright with nothing demanding discipline by the Body. Of course the good soil sowed onto will sprout. We can also lead double lives, but I am finding the wisdom of our forebears. Just a takeaway I had from this thread and some more church history research.
Craig Betts
Member
Just to clarify, I don't claim to have great answers or the best ones. I'm just going on my experiences in reading the Word of God and what I see there. Church discipline is still operational. When a brother or sister is walking in willful continual sin and will not heed the exhortations of another brother or sister, then we follow the process given in Matthew. I think that you need to look at the specific activity that the person is engaging in, too. That being said, sin is sin, no matter what. We are all called to walk together in accountability, so you and I both have the spiritual right and obligation to call each other to holiness. This applies whether someone is gossiping, stealing, or whether someone is living/sleeping with their unmarried partner or committing adultery. We go to that person individually. If they refuse to listen, we take another brother/sister along and try again. If they still refuse, we take it to the leadership in the church. If they still refuse, then we treat them as an "unbeliever" in hopes that they will wake up and realize their sin. At this point, we will have pretty much turned them out of the fellowship. This part is the most difficult, because as I said before, no one but God really knows the heart of a man. But we must be willing to take them at their word. If they say they believe the gospel and have accepted its package, then we put them in the Lord's hands and let Him deal with them at that point. We are not ultimately responsible for their choices. It is sad when it comes to this, but what else are you going to do? Yes, I would certainly question whether or not they truly understand the gospel or if they are saved, but I am not going to sit and be the judge of their hearts. Only God knows the heart of a man. If you look at Lot, you'd never think he was a believer, and yet he is called a 'Righteous man" in Hebrews. It still all comes back to the understanding of how a person is saved. We try to backload the gospel with works, and you just can't do that. You are either saved by faith or by works. It's all over the scriptures. There are over 80 verses that clearly tell us that we are saved by believing/faith, not works or the law. Justification is a one time event. However, sanctification is a life-long event, and THAT is what we need to be focusing on when we walk together as Christians. All christians should have good works - the scriptures clearly teach this. If not, then we need to call each other into accountability so that we start bearing more fruit. This is truly a work of the Holy Spirit, but the Holy Spirit can be resisted (as is clearly seen in the story of Stephen when he was being stoned). None of us are 100% submitted to the Holy Spirit 100% of the time. But does that mean that we aren't saved? Again, if you keep looking to works, you are never going to be completely sure of your salvation. But John clearly says that these things are written that you might KNOW that you are saved. Again, how many works must one demonstrate before he/she has crossed over the line into the category of a justified believer? You are never justified by your works.
Sorry, that was a rant. This was supposed to be about church discipline in relation to that.
Good works AND 'genuine' faith are a sign of a 'regenerate' heart, the source for both.
This one?:
24 Ye see that by works a man is justified, and not only by faith. Ja 2
Note that this is the only passage in the scriptures that addresses 'justification by faith alone', i.e., Sola Fide.
Note that James is talking about justifying works. The 'works' to which James is referring:
27 Pure religion and undefiled before our God and Father is this, to visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep oneself unspotted from the world. Ja 1
15 If a brother or sister be naked and in lack of daily food,
16 and one of you say unto them, Go in peace, be ye warmed and filled; and yet ye give them not the things needful to the body; what doth it profit? Ja 2
...are the very same works by which we're all going to be judged in that day of judgement:
34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
35 for I was hungry, and ye gave me to eat; I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink; I was a stranger, and ye took me in;
36 naked, and ye clothed me; I was sick, and ye visited me; I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into the eternal fire which is prepared for the devil and his angels:
42 for I was hungry, and ye did not give me to eat; I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink;
43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in; naked, and ye clothed me not; sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. Mt 25
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Was it 'genuine faith' that motivated the Good Samaritan to aid him who had fallen to the robbers? No!:
33 But a certain Samaritan, as he journeyed, came where he was: and when he saw him, he was moved with compassion, Lu 10
Craig Betts
Member
OK. Help me out here. What is the point you are making? I'm just trying to understand what you are saying. Thanks...
Well, you're not trying very hard!
What's hard to understand about "Good works AND 'genuine' faith are a sign of a 'regenerate' heart, the source for both."?
Dead men must first be made alive before they can do good works or believe. Therefore good works and faith are a sign of life.
What's hard to understand about the Good Samaritan being motivated from the heart, and not the head?
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Craig Betts
Member
Well, you're not trying very hard!
What's hard to understand about "Good works AND 'genuine' faith are a sign of a 'regenerate' heart, the source for both."?
Dead men must first be made alive before they can do good works or believe. Therefore good works and faith are a sign of life.
What's hard to understand about the Good Samaritan being motivated from the heart, and not the head?
¡Ay! I just wanted you to clarify what you were saying, not that I don't understand the concepts.
No problem. I guess it depends on what you define as regenerate. I understand "regenerate" to mean someone who is indwelt by the Holy Spirit. Regenerate people should exhibit good works because the bible says that God has created good works for us to do. But good works in and of themselves are a sign of sanctification, not justification. You are justified the moment you believe. Your works can never prove that you are spiritually justified and born again in your soul. Scripture clearly says that our salvation/new birth/regeneration is of faith, not the law or works.
What I struggle with is the fact that so many folks look at someone's life and make a judgment as to whether or not they are regenerate based on works. We are not regenerated based on our works. We are regenerated based on our belief in the gospel. People want to backload the gospel with works, and you just cannot do that. When you stand before Christ, your good works will be something for which you will be rewarded, but they are not going to be the proof that you are justified/regenerate. The proof is in the fact that you believed on the Lord Jesus Christ, His death and resurrection and you realized that you were a sinner who deserved God's punishment. That's what is required to be saved. Nothing else. Beyond that we are talking about sanctification which involves good works.
Certainly anything more than none
Yep, it says right there that the Good Samaritan did it on account that the Bible says he should.
Not.
The priest and the Levite that went to the other side of the road and walked on by had 'the Bible'. The Samaritan did not. That's one of the major takeaways of the parable.
Craig Betts
Member
You'll have to forgive me for being thickheaded here....but what is your point with the Samaritan? I'm confused. Are you saying that he was or was not a believer? My apologies. I need this in black and white. What point are you making? Then I can dialogue better with you. Sorry....