What "amount" of Good Works validate Faith?

[kyredneck]

You'll have to forgive me for being thickheaded here...

I don't believe you to be dense, I just think you're not acquainted with thinking outside the Southern Baptist box, which I'm familiar with, being raised in the SB church.

Are you saying that he was or was not a believer?

Once again, according to the record, was it faith that moved him to 'do the law'?

Compare:

31 And by chance a certain priest was going down that way: and when he saw him, he passed by on the other side.
32 And in like manner a Levite also, when he came to the place, and saw him, passed by on the other side.
33 But a certain Samaritan, as he journeyed, came where he was: and when he saw him, he was moved with compassion, Lu 10

...with:

13 for not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified:
14 (for when Gentiles that have not the law do by nature the things of the law, these, not having the law, are the law unto themselves;
15 in that they show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness therewith, and their thoughts one with another accusing or else excusing them); Ro 2

The 'doers of the law' in both passages are moved to do so from 'the heart with the law written upon it', not from faith that comes from hearing. The priest and the Levite who had the law and were hearers of the law were not in the least compelled to fulfill it.

 

[Steven Yeadon]

I don't believe you to be dense, I just think you're not acquainted with thinking outside the Southern Baptist box, which I'm familiar with, being raised in the SB church.



Once again, according to the record, was it faith that moved him to 'do the law'?

Compare:

31 And by chance a certain priest was going down that way: and when he saw him, he passed by on the other side.
32 And in like manner a Levite also, when he came to the place, and saw him, passed by on the other side.
33 But a certain Samaritan, as he journeyed, came where he was: and when he saw him, he was moved with compassion, Lu 10

...with:

13 for not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified:
14 (for when Gentiles that have not the law do by nature the things of the law, these, not having the law, are the law unto themselves;
15 in that they show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness therewith, and their thoughts one with another accusing or else excusing them); Ro 2

The 'doers of the law' in both passages are moved to do so from 'the heart with the law written upon it', not from faith that comes from hearing. The priest and the Levite who had the law and were hearers of the law were not in the least compelled to fulfill it.

Kyredneck, you lost me. I was about to say to Craig Betts that regeneration by the Holy Spirit is the consequence of faith and good works are the consequence of regeneration. Although, we have a part to play in our sanctification where we in the fear of the LORD choose to do as he commanded. The result of the genuinely elect is that we will pass the tests Jesus Christ will give at the Judgment such as the Judgment of the sheep and goats in Matthew 25.

 

[Steven Yeadon]

Just to clarify, I don't claim to have great answers or the best ones. I'm just going on my experiences in reading the Word of God and what I see there. Church discipline is still operational. When a brother or sister is walking in willful continual sin and will not heed the exhortations of another brother or sister, then we follow the process given in Matthew. I think that you need to look at the specific activity that the person is engaging in, too. That being said, sin is sin, no matter what. We are all called to walk together in accountability, so you and I both have the spiritual right and obligation to call each other to holiness. This applies whether someone is gossiping, stealing, or whether someone is living/sleeping with their unmarried partner or committing adultery. We go to that person individually. If they refuse to listen, we take another brother/sister along and try again. If they still refuse, we take it to the leadership in the church. If they still refuse, then we treat them as an "unbeliever" in hopes that they will wake up and realize their sin. At this point, we will have pretty much turned them out of the fellowship. This part is the most difficult, because as I said before, no one but God really knows the heart of a man. But we must be willing to take them at their word. If they say they believe the gospel and have accepted its package, then we put them in the Lord's hands and let Him deal with them at that point. We are not ultimately responsible for their choices. It is sad when it comes to this, but what else are you going to do? Yes, I would certainly question whether or not they truly understand the gospel or if they are saved, but I am not going to sit and be the judge of their hearts. Only God knows the heart of a man. If you look at Lot, you'd never think he was a believer, and yet he is called a 'Righteous man" in Hebrews. It still all comes back to the understanding of how a person is saved. We try to backload the gospel with works, and you just can't do that. You are either saved by faith or by works. It's all over the scriptures. There are over 80 verses that clearly tell us that we are saved by believing/faith, not works or the law. Justification is a one time event. However, sanctification is a life-long event, and THAT is what we need to be focusing on when we walk together as Christians. All christians should have good works - the scriptures clearly teach this. If not, then we need to call each other into accountability so that we start bearing more fruit. This is truly a work of the Holy Spirit, but the Holy Spirit can be resisted (as is clearly seen in the story of Stephen when he was being stoned). None of us are 100% submitted to the Holy Spirit 100% of the time. But does that mean that we aren't saved? Again, if you keep looking to works, you are never going to be completely sure of your salvation. But John clearly says that these things are written that you might KNOW that you are saved. Again, how many works must one demonstrate before he/she has crossed over the line into the category of a justified believer? You are never justified by your works.
Sorry, that was a rant. This was supposed to be about church discipline in relation to that.

Thank you for a thoughtful response!

As I just told Kyredneck, regeneration by the Holy Spirit is the consequence of faith and good works are the consequence of regeneration. Although, we have a part to play in our sanctification where we in the fear of the LORD choose to do as he commanded. The result of the genuinely elect is that we will pass the tests Jesus Christ will give at the Judgment such as the Judgment of the sheep and goats in Matthew 25. That is my view after years of carefully studying the scriptures.

 

[kyredneck]

regeneration by the Holy Spirit is the consequence of faith

That didn't last long. You no longer agree with post #12?

 

[Craig Betts]

I don't believe you to be dense, I just think you're not acquainted with thinking outside the Southern Baptist box, which I'm familiar with, being raised in the SB church.



Once again, according to the record, was it faith that moved him to 'do the law'?

Compare:

31 And by chance a certain priest was going down that way: and when he saw him, he passed by on the other side.
32 And in like manner a Levite also, when he came to the place, and saw him, passed by on the other side.
33 But a certain Samaritan, as he journeyed, came where he was: and when he saw him, he was moved with compassion, Lu 10

...with:

13 for not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified:
14 (for when Gentiles that have not the law do by nature the things of the law, these, not having the law, are the law unto themselves;
15 in that they show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness therewith, and their thoughts one with another accusing or else excusing them); Ro 2

The 'doers of the law' in both passages are moved to do so from the 'heart with the law written upon it', not from faith that comes from hearing. The priest and the Levite who had the law and were hearers of the law were not in the least compelled to fulfill it.

Kyredneck, you lost me. I was about to say to Craig Betts that regeneration by the Holy Spirit is the consequence of faith and good works are the consequence of regeneration. Although, we have a part to play in our sanctification where we in the fear of the LORD choose to do as he commanded. The result of the genuinely elect is that we will pass the tests Jesus Christ will give at the Judgment such as the Judgment of the sheep and goats in Matthew 25.

The only test we have to pass is if we believed/trusted in the gospel message. If God asks you why He should let you into his kingdom, what are you going to say to Him? ..."because I was obedient and did everything that a christian should do"? The only thing that we can plead is the shed blood of Christ and the fact that we trusted in His work on the cross for the salvation of our souls. Nothing else. Our own righteousness is as filthy rags. Believers are working towards rewards in heaven. That and our love for God is the motivation for our good deeds and the fruit that we show. The Holy Spirit wants to exhibit those fruits in us, but we can resist the Holy Spirit at any time and choose to walk in the flesh. But no amount of fleshly activity is going to cause me to lose my salvation because it's not based on what I do or don't do. This is not license to sin, as Paul clearly states. But I cannot base my salvation on how good I am at a particular time in my life. However, I can look at myself and ask myself if I am growing in sanctification. That's where the focus needs to be. That's my obedience to Christ, but not so that I can feel good about myself and think that I'm showing enough good works to prove I'm a Christian.

The problem is that no one can see into a man's heart to know what his true motivation is for his good deeds. Only God sees the heart and knows for sure what the motive of a mans' actions are. I think people are still trying to look at a person and decide if they are saved based on what they seem them doing or not doing. People want to use James' passage, but he is talking to BELIEVERS and simply telling them that if they don't have works, they have a useless faith - that no one from the world will be able to look at you and see that you are the Christian that you claim to be- that they need to start acting like who they really are in Christ. It is about sanctification.

Regardless of what you think of the good Samaritan passage, it does not change the fact that you cannot use good works of any amount to prove that someone is regenerate. Rengeration comes only from faith and trust in the gospel. Period.

 

[Steven Yeadon]

That didn't last long. You no longer agree with post #12?

I'm sorry, I got confused. How do we get a regenerate heart is what I should ask you? I thought it was the Holy Spirit convicting us to choose to believe in Jesus that then gets the deposit of Him.

 

[Steven Yeadon]

The only test we have to pass is if we believed/trusted in the gospel message. If God asks you why He should let you into his kingdom, what are you going to say to Him? ..."because I was obedient and did everything that a christian should do"? The only thing that we can plead is the shed blood of Christ and the fact that we trusted in His work on the cross for the salvation of our souls. Nothing else. Our own righteousness is as filthy rags. Believers are working towards rewards in heaven. That and our love for God is the motivation for our good deeds and the fruit that we show. The Holy Spirit wants to exhibit those fruits in us, but we can resist the Holy Spirit at any time and choose to walk in the flesh. But no amount of fleshly activity is going to cause me to lose my salvation because it's not based on what I do or don't do. This is not license to sin, as Paul clearly states. But I cannot base my salvation on how good I am at a particular time in my life. However, I can look at myself and ask myself if I am growing in sanctification. That's where the focus needs to be. That's my obedience to Christ, but not so that I can feel good about myself and think that I'm showing enough good works to prove I'm a Christian.

The problem is that no one can see into a man's heart to know what his true motivation is for his good deeds. Only God sees the heart and knows for sure what the motive of a mans' actions are. I think people are still trying to look at a person and decide if they are saved based on what they seem them doing or not doing. People want to use James' passage, but he is talking to BELIEVERS and simply telling them that if they don't have works, they have a useless faith - that no one from the world will be able to look at you and see that you are the Christian that you claim to be- that they need to start acting like who they really are in Christ. It is about sanctification.

Regardless of what you think of the good Samaritan passage, it does not change the fact that you cannot use good works of any amount to prove that someone is regenerate. Rengeration comes only from faith and trust in the gospel. Period.

That goes against scripture, most notably 2 Peter 1. I urge you to read it.

Also why does the bible in almost every New Testament book warn against apostasy? I take it we can turn on the faith, or at least nonelect Christians can be deepened in faith to salvation by the many warnings.

 

[Craig Betts]

That goes against scripture, most notably 2 Peter 1. I urge you to read it.

Also why does the bible in almost every New Testament book warn against apostasy? I take it we can turn on the faith, or at least nonelect Christians can be deepened in faith to salvation by the many warnings.

Yes, I believe that a Christian could turn to apostasy. But still, what did you do to earn your salvation? If you can't DO anything to earn it, how could you do anything to lose it? It's a gift from the Lord. Is He going to take it away from you because you did something wrong? The only real sin that any person is going to ultimately be judged for his unbelief. That is why apostacy is serious. Not believing the gospel is the ultimate sin that will result in eternity in Hell. Apostacy is certainly a reality. I honestly don't know what transpires in the heart of a man/woman who believes and then turns their back on all that they embraced. God forbid it happen, but it does. In those cases, I simply let that in the Lord's hands for Him to decide. God knows the true heart of a man, and it is not our place to sit in judgement of whether or not they were truly saved to begin with. Don't get caught up with all of that. Our work as Christians is to encourage and exhort each other to grow in our relationship with Christ. We are to witness and share the gospel with the world so that they will believe and trust it.

 

[Steven Yeadon]

Yes, I believe that a Christian could turn to apostasy. But still, what did you do to earn your salvation? If you can't DO anything to earn it, how could you do anything to lose it? It's a gift from the Lord. Is He going to take it away from you because you did something wrong? The only real sin that any person is going to ultimately be judged for his unbelief. That is why apostacy is serious. Not believing the gospel is the ultimate sin that will result in eternity in Hell. Apostacy is certainly a reality. I honestly don't know what transpires in the heart of a man/woman who believes and then turns their back on all that they embraced. God forbid it happen, but it does. In those cases, I simply let that in the Lord's hands for Him to decide. God knows the true heart of a man, and it is not our place to sit in judgement of whether or not they were truly saved to begin with. Don't get caught up with all of that. Our work as Christians is to encourage and exhort each other to grow in our relationship with Christ. We are to witness and share the gospel with the world so that they will believe and trust it.

There are sins that at least denote one without saving faith according to the bible.

Galatians 5:18-26

18But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.19The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity, and debauchery; 20idolatry and sorcery; hatred, discord, jealousy, and rage; rivalries, divisions, factions, 21and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23gentleness, and self-control. Against such things there is no law.24Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. 25Since we live by the Spirit, let us walk in step with the Spirit. 26Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying one another.

 

[Craig Betts]

There are sins that at least denote one without saving faith according to the bible.

Galatians 5:18-26

18But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.19The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity, and debauchery; 20idolatry and sorcery; hatred, discord, jealousy, and rage; rivalries, divisions, factions, 21and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23gentleness, and self-control. Against such things there is no law.24Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. 25Since we live by the Spirit, let us walk in step with the Spirit. 26Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying one another.

These sins could be committed by a believer or a non believer. Don't get me wrong. If I have a friend who claims to be a Christian and lives in willful sin of adultery, yes I will probably have question marks in the bubble over my head. But at the same time, remember that Paul wrote to the Corinthians who were practicing these things and he basically told them to stop it because that was not who they really were in Christ. They were carnal. But then sin is sin. What about the Christian who is overweight and eats too much (gluttony)?? They are perpetually sinning as long as they remain in that state. Are they going to hell for the repeated willful sin of gluttony? Sin is sin is sin. It's all the same in God's eyes. God desires for His children to live holy. That is clear. But why some choose to not obey God's commands as closely is part of the flesh. Yes, we SHOULD be growing in sanctification and holiness. But if it's not happening, then we confront our brothers in love and call them to a better walk. Again, when it comes down to the end, you cannot be the judge and jury as to who is genuinely saved. Folks that claim to be Christians and live like the world are not difficult to handle. The scripture clearly gives us instructions - we call them to accountability and if they refuse to do that, we turn them over to Satan for the destruction of their souls. We treat them as if they were not a believer and let God do the rest. We aggressively pray for them and move on.

 

[Steven Yeadon]

These sins could be committed by a believer or a non believer. Don't get me wrong. If I have a friend who claims to be a Christian and lives in willful sin of adultery, yes I will probably have question marks in the bubble over my head. But at the same time, remember that Paul wrote to the Corinthians who were practicing these things and he basically told them to stop it because that was not who they really were in Christ. They were carnal. But then sin is sin. What about the Christian who is overweight and eats too much (gluttony)?? They are perpetually sinning as long as they remain in that state. Are they going to hell for the repeated willful sin of gluttony? Sin is sin is sin. It's all the same in God's eyes. God desires for His children to live holy. That is clear. But why some choose to not obey God's commands as closely is part of the flesh. Yes, we SHOULD be growing in sanctification and holiness. But if it's not happening, then we confront our brothers in love and call them to a better walk. Again, when it comes down to the end, you cannot be the judge and jury as to who is genuinely saved. Folks that claim to be Christians and live like the world are not difficult to handle. The scripture clearly gives us instructions - we call them to accountability and if they refuse to do that, we turn them over to Satan for the destruction of their souls. We treat them as if they were not a believer and let God do the rest. We aggressively pray for them and move on.

Ok, here I must say that not all sins are equal because I do not see that taught in the Word. Different errors have differing punishments with sin in ignorance having few blows. All sin is wrong but not all errors are equal. Some errors such as unrepentant murder, adultery, blasphemy carry a death sentence.

One may say all sin is equal in that rebellion against Yahweh in anyway demands hell. This can be concluded, but it is something we as Adams offspring are all guilty of, but which Christ was prepared for from before the foundation of the world so that all may be saved through faith in Him.

Now 1 John makes clear willful, or defiant, sin means one is straying and needs correction. I agree with you on the need for a community of believers walking together, helping each other out of sin.

 

[Steven Yeadon]

These sins could be committed by a believer or a non believer. Don't get me wrong. If I have a friend who claims to be a Christian and lives in willful sin of adultery, yes I will probably have question marks in the bubble over my head. But at the same time, remember that Paul wrote to the Corinthians who were practicing these things and he basically told them to stop it because that was not who they really were in Christ. They were carnal. But then sin is sin. What about the Christian who is overweight and eats too much (gluttony)?? They are perpetually sinning as long as they remain in that state. Are they going to hell for the repeated willful sin of gluttony? Sin is sin is sin. It's all the same in God's eyes. God desires for His children to live holy. That is clear. But why some choose to not obey God's commands as closely is part of the flesh. Yes, we SHOULD be growing in sanctification and holiness. But if it's not happening, then we confront our brothers in love and call them to a better walk. Again, when it comes down to the end, you cannot be the judge and jury as to who is genuinely saved. Folks that claim to be Christians and live like the world are not difficult to handle. The scripture clearly gives us instructions - we call them to accountability and if they refuse to do that, we turn them over to Satan for the destruction of their souls. We treat them as if they were not a believer and let God do the rest. We aggressively pray for them and move on.

I think we disagree on an important point. I would say that we do know Christians by their works. That any Christian in terrible sin like fornication or homosexuality should be afraid for their soul. I just realized that.

 

[Craig Betts]

I think we disagree on an important point. I would say that we do know Christians by their works. That any Christian in terrible sin like fornication or homosexuality should be afraid for their soul. I just realized that.

Yes, I think being afraid for you soul would probably be a good expression. I have no qualms about Christians being known by their good works. James talks about it for a reason. Like I've been saying though: My beef is with the fact that people want to use works as proof that someone has been justified. Works prove sanctification. Is it possible that the willful sinner who never changes is not saved? Absolutely possible. He very well may not be regenerate. But at the end of the day, we just cannot make that judgement call. Only God knows. Again, we need to call anyone who professes to be a believer in Christ to a walk of holiness and follow through with the biblical mandates on how to handle such a person. The rest is in the hands of the Lord.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

If good works are a sign of genuine faith, then "how many" good works are needed? (Or, how much good works do we need to show for, to say that our faith is genuine?)

How many good works did the thief on the cross perform?

 

[Steven Yeadon]

Yes, I think being afraid for you soul would probably be a good expression. I have no qualms about Christians being known by their good works. James talks about it for a reason. Like I've been saying though: My beef is with the fact that people want to use works as proof that someone has been justified. Works prove sanctification. Is it possible that the willful sinner who never changes is not saved? Absolutely possible. He very well may not be regenerate. But at the end of the day, we just cannot make that judgement call. Only God knows. Again, we need to call anyone who professes to be a believer in Christ to a walk of holiness and follow through with the biblical mandates on how to handle such a person. The rest is in the hands of the Lord.

Here it seems we disagree on one very basic thing. I would argue that a Christian who died in defiant sin most likely went to hell. I agree absolute certainty is difficult to get, but I sure would never want to officiate at their funeral.

 

[Steven Yeadon]

How many good works did the thief on the cross perform?

The thief died faithful and loving Jesus Himself. He fulfills what is to be expected of him. That is my argument.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Yes, I believe that a Christian could turn to apostasy.

No. Christ will keep His sheep (John 10:27-30) and nothing will separate them from the love of God (Romans 8:38-39).

But suppose (as becomes less unlikely every day) that Christianity became illegal and you appeared before the court accused of being a Christian. Whom could you call in your defense?

Perhaps your wife could testify, "I never thought he was a Christian. Sure he goes to church every Sunday, but at home he drinks too much and swears horribly; he is abusive to me and the kids and puts me down in public."

Perhaps your neighbours could testify: "He never witnessed to us or gave us a tract, he never did us a good turn, he lied and boasted and talked about us behind our backs. We never thought he was a Christian."

Perhaps you workmates could testify: "We never thought he was a Christian. He used to crack dirty jokes and swear, he was always gawping at the nude pin-ups on the wall and he was suggestive with the women. He never helped or encouraged anyone; certainly he never witnessed to anyone."

Perhaps you bank manager could testify: "It never occurred to me that he was a Christian. I never saw a standing order to his church or a Christian charity, but there were some fair-sized payments to the bar and the wine-shop.

And so the Judge would say, "Well, Mr so-and-so, I've heard all the evidence and it's quite clear to me that you're not a Christian. You're free to go."

"Make a tree good and its fruit will be good, or make a tree bad and its fruit will be bad, for a tree is recognized by its fruit" (Matthew 12:330.

 

[Steven Yeadon]

No. Christ will keep His sheep (John 10:27-30) and nothing will separate them from the love of God (Romans 8:38-39).

But suppose (as becomes less unlikely every day) that Christianity became illegal and you appeared before the court accused of being a Christian. Whom could you call in your defense?

Perhaps your wife could testify, "I never thought he was a Christian. Sure he goes to church every Sunday, but at home he drinks too much and swears horribly; he is abusive to me and the kids and puts me down in public."

Perhaps your neighbours could testify: "He never witnessed to us or gave us a tract, he never did us a good turn, he lied and boasted and talked about us behind our backs. We never thought he was a Christian."

Perhaps you workmates could testify: "We never thought he was a Christian. He used to crack dirty jokes and swear, he was always gawping at the nude pin-ups on the wall and he was suggestive with the women. He never helped or encouraged anyone; certainly he never witnessed to anyone."

Perhaps you bank manager could testify: "It never occurred to me that he was a Christian. I never saw a standing order to his church or a Christian charity, but there were some fair-sized payments to the bar and the wine-shop.

And so the Judge would say, "Well, Mr so-and-so, I've heard all the evidence and it's quite clear to me that you're not a Christian. You're free to go."

"Make a tree good and its fruit will be good, or make a tree bad and its fruit will be bad, for a tree is recognized by its fruit" (Matthew 12:330.

Wow thank you for reminding me of Matthew 12. Eureka! The good heart gives forth good fruit and the evil heart evil fruit. They cannot do vice versa. I never really let that sink in for some reason. Profound Martin.

 

[kyredneck]

How do we get a regenerate heart is what I should ask you?

Young's Literal Translation:

7 `Thou mayest not wonder that I said to thee, It behoveth you to be born from above;
8 the Spirit where he willeth doth blow, and his voice thou dost hear, but thou hast not known whence he cometh, and whither he goeth; thus is every one who hath been born of the Spirit.` Jn 3

"The Spirit where He willeth doth blow", that's how anyone gets a regenerate heart. We have no more control over the heavenly birth than we do our physical birth. One must FIRST be born from above in order to enter, or even to see the kingdom of God. No preacher or Sunday School teacher or parent or missionary, no flesh, etc. carries or conveys this Spirit, He does as He wills.

 

[kyredneck]

How many good works did the thief on the cross perform?

He may have done many good works before he committed 'the sin unto death' which brought on his capital punishment.

The child of God is capable of doing EVERYTHING he's told NOT to do in The Book.

But, alas, so few recognize this fact these days.