What "amount" of Good Works validate Faith?

[kyredneck]

The only test we have to pass is if we believed/trusted in the gospel message.

Do you ever back up anything you post with scripture?

 

[kyredneck]

Yes, I believe that a Christian could turn to apostasy.

It certainly appears that Solomon did exactly that.

 

[kyredneck]

But suppose (as becomes less unlikely every day) that Christianity became illegal and you appeared before the court accused of being a Christian. Whom could you call in your defense?

Perhaps your wife could testify, "I never thought he was a Christian. Sure he goes to church every Sunday, but at home he drinks too much and swears horribly; he is abusive to me and the kids and puts me down in public."

Perhaps your neighbours could testify: "He never witnessed to us or gave us a tract, he never did us a good turn, he lied and boasted and talked about us behind our backs. We never thought he was a Christian."

Perhaps you workmates could testify: "We never thought he was a Christian. He used to crack dirty jokes and swear, he was always gawping at the nude pin-ups on the wall and he was suggestive with the women. He never helped or encouraged anyone; certainly he never witnessed to anyone."

Perhaps you bank manager could testify: "It never occurred to me that he was a Christian. I never saw a standing order to his church or a Christian charity, but there were some fair-sized payments to the bar and the wine-shop.

And so the Judge would say, "Well, Mr so-and-so, I've heard all the evidence and it's quite clear to me that you're not a Christian. You're free to go."

Lame.

 

[kyredneck]

Yes, I think being afraid for you soul would probably be a good expression. I have no qualms about Christians being known by their good works. James talks about it for a reason. Like I've been saying though: My beef is with the fact that people want to use works as proof that someone has been justified. Works prove sanctification. Is it possible that the willful sinner who never changes is not saved? Absolutely possible. He very well may not be regenerate. But at the end of the day, we just cannot make that judgement call. Only God knows. Again, we need to call anyone who professes to be a believer in Christ to a walk of holiness and follow through with the biblical mandates on how to handle such a person. The rest is in the hands of the Lord.

Craig I can/do empathize with your position here, I've been there. I'll give you some advice which I'm pretty sure you won't do, but here it is anyway:

Strip away everything from your mind that you think you know about the Bible. Approach it as a child that knows nothing, praying as David, " Open thou mine eyes, let me behold wondrous things from thy law". Start reading on page one Genesis and read straight through as quickly as possible in order to get the 'ideal' of it.

You'll be amazed at the difference from what it says and what you've been taught that it says.

And, you'll never be sorry you did it.

 

[1689Dave]

If good works are a sign of genuine faith, then "how many" good works are needed? (Or, how much good works do we need to show for, to say that our faith is genuine?)

Good works are motivated by love. If you go to work motivated by greed, it is a bad work. If you go to work motivated by love for God and others, it's a work of faith and good.

 

[Yeshua1]

I don't see a set amount of good works for everyone as being required for demonstrating genuine faith. Although all genuine believers are fruitful, not all are equally fruitful. (Matthew 13:23) The apostle Paul had numerous good works to show as a sign of genuine faith after his conversion, yet the thief on the cross died the same day of his conversion and only had time to rebuke the other thief, admit his guilt and ask Jesus to remember him when He comes into His kingdom to demonstrate genuine faith. (Luke 23:39-43)

There has to be an evidence of a changed heart and mind, such as desiring to pray, to read bible, to obey God, to be willing to witness etc, just something to show new life now in Christ!

 

[Yeshua1]

Paul states that believers are to perform good works (Ephesians 2:10). Nowhere in the Bible do we see a quantity attached to good works, nor are good works to be paraded in front of others in order to evaluate them. Sometimes good works will be unseen and do not merit widespread notice. Perhaps you are praying for someone or you deliver a meal. Few people may know about it. Other times your actions may be observed by others but that was not your intent. The principle that rules good works is our attitude towards them. Consider what our Lord had to say:

Matthew 6:1-61 “Beware of practicing your righteousness before men to be noticed by them; otherwise you have no reward with your Father who is in heaven.
2 “So when you give to the poor, do not sound a trumpet before you, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, so that they may be honored by men. Truly I say to you, they have their reward in full. 3 But when you give to the poor, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing, 4 so that your giving will be in secret; and your Father who sees what is done in secret will reward you.
5 “When you pray, you are not to be like the hypocrites; for they love to stand and pray in the synagogues and on the street corners so that they may be seen by men. Truly I say to you, they have their reward in full. 6 But you, when you pray, go into your inner room, close your door and pray to your Father who is in secret, and your Father who sees what is done in secret will reward you.

In short, do good as you have means and opportunity to do good. Bless others. Pray for them. Sacrificially give. Give of your time as well as your money. Do not worry about keeping a scorecard because grace does not work that way.

Jesus stated just something as simple as giving someone a glass of water, helping out poor and needy, qualifies... God is not so much into quantity as into quality of the good works...

 

[mailmandan]

There has to be an evidence of a changed heart and mind, such as desiring to pray, to read bible, to obey God, to be willing to witness etc, just something to show new life now in Christ!

And there WILL be evidence IF we truly are saved.

 

[Craig Betts]

Do you ever back up anything you post with scripture?

Yes, I should probably do that. My problem is that I'm too lazy to go and find the specific passages. I know they are in the scriptures but I've never been good about giving the particular address of the passage.

 

[Craig Betts]

There has to be an evidence of a changed heart and mind, such as desiring to pray, to read bible, to obey God, to be willing to witness etc, just something to show new life now in Christ!

But was the thief on the cross justified or not?? He had no time to exhibit good works. That right there proves that our salvation is proven strictly by faith. There SHOULD be good works, but that is NOT what saves you.

Folks, I think that what needs to be considered here is the fundamental truth that if you believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, you will be saved. My whole point in my postings is the fact that our justification in Christ is only accomplished by our belief and trust in the gospel. None of us will argue with that because the scriptures are clear. Strip everything else away except this very truth. Faith alone is what saves you! Your works cannot be used as proof that your very soul has been justified by Christ. Your works prove your sanctification. The very singular act of a person being saved and immediately filled with the Holy Spirit is only accomplished through one method - FAITH. You simply have to believe and trust the gospel to receive this transaction. After that, then it is all about the works and spiritual growth. I am 100% for living holy as a follower of Christ. I don't think that you can just do whatever you want as a Christian and get away with it. There will be serious consequences for choosing to live rebelliously. God may even choose to just take you out early. God will discipline His children who willfully live in sin. But everyone still wants to backload salvation with works. You can't do that. I honestly think that the reason people do this is because ultimately they don't think it is fair that someone could simply believe and then become regenerate, and then still have a sinful life. People are proud and want to be able to look inside of themselves and rest in their good deeds as proof. But how many good deeds does it take? How many good works do I need before you will consider me to be a regenerate person? What about tomorrow when I end up having a terrible day where I messed up multiple times? Was the thief on the cross regenerate? He had no good works to prove it. I can't look at my good deeds to prove that the Holy Spirit lives inside of me. The issue here is the fundamental transaction that occurs when the Holy Spirit enters a man's soul and immediately he is born again. That can only happen one way - by believing in the gospel. God promised that if we believed, we would be saved. Is he going to break His promise? But who are we to try and look inside a man's soul and determine if he is truly regenerate based on how many good works he exhibits? You can have doubts, but you cannot say that he is definitely not saved. Only God knows if the man truly believed or not.

 

[Yeshua1]

But was the thief on the cross justified or not?? He had no time to exhibit good works. That right there proves that our salvation is proven strictly by faith. There SHOULD be good works, but that is NOT what saves you.

Folks, I think that what needs to be considered here is the fundamental truth that if you believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, you will be saved. My whole point in my postings is the fact that our justification in Christ is only accomplished by our belief and trust in the gospel. None of us will argue with that because the scriptures are clear. Strip everything else away except this very truth. Faith alone is what saves you! Your works cannot be used as proof that your very soul has been justified by Christ. Your works prove your sanctification. The very singular act of a person being saved and immediately filled with the Holy Spirit is only accomplished through one method - FAITH. You simply have to believe and trust the gospel to receive this transaction. After that, then it is all about the works and spiritual growth. I am 100% for living holy as a follower of Christ. I don't think that you can just do whatever you want as a Christian and get away with it. There will be serious consequences for choosing to live rebelliously. God may even choose to just take you out early. God will discipline His children who willfully live in sin. But everyone still wants to backload salvation with works. You can't do that. I honestly think that the reason people do this is because ultimately they don't think it is fair that someone could simply believe and then become regenerate, and then still have a sinful life. People are proud and want to be able to look inside of themselves and rest in their good deeds as proof. But how many good deeds does it take? How many good works do I need before you will consider me to be a regenerate person? What about tomorrow when I end up having a terrible day where I messed up multiple times? Was the thief on the cross regenerate? He had no good works to prove it. I can't look at my good deeds to prove that the Holy Spirit lives inside of me. The issue here is the fundamental transaction that occurs when the Holy Spirit enters a man's soul and immediately he is born again. That can only happen one way - by believing in the gospel. God promised that if we believed, we would be saved. Is he going to break His promise? But who are we to try and look inside a man's soul and determine if he is truly regenerate based on how many good works he exhibits? You can have doubts, but you cannot say that he is definitely not saved. Only God knows if the man truly believed or not.

Our focus must never been on what we are doing, but must stayfocused on what Jesus did for us while on that Cross, as he accomplished salvation, I did not!

 

[1689Dave]

Our focus must never been on what we are doing, but must stayfocused on what Jesus did for us while on that Cross, as he accomplished salvation, I did not!

I stay focused on making sure love for God and enemies remains my motive.

 

[Yeshua1]

I stay focused on making sure love for God and enemies remains my motive.

its not love, but faith in Him that saves us though....

 

[Steven Yeadon]

its not love, but faith in Him that saves us though....

Yeshua I'm surprised you forgot about:

John 13:35
New American Standard Bible
"By this all men will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another."

That kind of does it though for this thread I realize.

Remember Matthew 10:42

New American Standard Bible
"And whoever in the name of a disciple gives to one of these little ones even a cup of cold water to drink, truly I say to you, he shall not lose his reward."

And Matthew 25:37-40
37Then the righteous will answer Him, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You something to drink? 38When did we see You a stranger and take You in, or naked and clothe You? 39When did we see You sick or in prison and visit You?’40And the King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of Mine, you did for Me.’

 

[1689Dave]

its not love, but faith in Him that saves us though....

Faith works by love. No love no true faith.

“For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.” Galatians 5:6 (KJV 1900)

“For [if we are] in Christ Jesus, neither circumcision nor uncircumcision counts for anything, but only faith activated and energized and expressed and working through love.” Galatians 5:6 (AMP)

 

[MB]

There has to be an evidence of a changed heart and mind, such as desiring to pray, to read bible, to obey God, to be willing to witness etc, just something to show new life now in Christ!

Why witness if man is saved with out faith. Don't you believe man's decision means nothing.
MB

 

[Yeshua1]

Yeshua I'm surprised you forgot about:

John 13:35
New American Standard Bible
"By this all men will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another."

That kind of does it though for this thread I realize.

Remember Matthew 10:42

New American Standard Bible
"And whoever in the name of a disciple gives to one of these little ones even a cup of cold water to drink, truly I say to you, he shall not lose his reward."

And Matthew 25:37-40
37Then the righteous will answer Him, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You something to drink? 38When did we see You a stranger and take You in, or naked and clothe You? 39When did we see You sick or in prison and visit You?’40And the King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of Mine, you did for Me.’

Love is the fruit of the Holy Spirit once we are saved, but not the cause of us being saved!

 

[Yeshua1]

Faith works by love. No love no true faith.

“For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.” Galatians 5:6 (KJV 1900)

“For [if we are] in Christ Jesus, neither circumcision nor uncircumcision counts for anything, but only faith activated and energized and expressed and working through love.” Galatians 5:6 (AMP)

No true love unless we are saved first!

 

[Yeshua1]

Why witness if man is saved with out faith. Don't you believe man's decision means nothing.
MB

Sinners must believe in Jesus to get saved, but its the will of God that saves them, not their own efforts and will!

 

[Steven Yeadon]

Love is the fruit of the Holy Spirit once we are saved, but not the cause of us being saved!

I agree, not saying otherwise.