John 3:5 Is Not Requiring Baptism For Salvation

[Alan Gross]

There is the "Of the doctrine of baptisms."
John the baptist said, "I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire: Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and will gather the wheat into his garner; but the chaff he will burn with fire unquenchable."

There is the Bible usage of," one baptism", in water that was Divinely Originated by The Athority of God as an Ordinance of The Lord's churches He Built and Will Continue to Build/ Edify until He Comes Again.

The figurative usage of, 'baptise you with The Holy Spirit', is Jesus Fulfilling Daniel 9 on The Day of Pentecost, when He Annointed the Most Holy, which is The church that Jesus Built.

He Gave her Another Comforter.

To what He Called, "My church", when He Promised He would Be with her, to The End of The World, not His Disciples.

They weren't going to live until The End of The World, but His churches as an Institution Will.

The reference is to Jesus Immersing His church Organization, as a Perpetual Institution that He Would Be WITH, Always, by The Holy Spiri's Protecting, Perpetuating, Governing, and Teaching Presence.

Jesus Did the figurative 'baptising', not The Holy Spirit and it was of The Most Holy, not individuals, and had nothing related to Salvation about it.

Again, Jesus Casting into Unquenchable Fire, by figuratively, 'baptising', with Fire, is a figure of speech. The will be in The Lake of Fire.

"The church", is not a Bible Reality, where Satan has invented a different meaning that would include "all saved people".

"Church", in The Bible, is always a called- out assembly.

So, that, also, is a misreading, misconception, misinterpretation, and deliberate lie.

The doctrines of baptisms were by purely unsaved false religious goofballs.

 

[37818]

There is the Bible usage of," one baptism", in water that was Divinely Originated by The Athority of God as an Ordinance of The Lord's churches He Built and Will Continue to Build/ Edify until He Comes Again.

The figurative usage of, 'baptise you with The Holy Spirit', is Jesus Fulfilling Daniel 9 on The Day of Pentecost, when He Annointed the Most Holy, which is The church that Jesus Built.

He Gave her Another Comforter.

To what He Called, "My church", when He Promised He would Be with her, to The End of The World, not His Disciples.

They weren't going to live until The End of The World, but His churches as an Institution Will.

The reference is to Jesus Immersing His church Organization, as a Perpetual Institution that He Would Be WITH, Always, by The Holy Spiri's Protecting, Perpetuating, Governing, and Teaching Presence.

Jesus Did the figurative 'baptising', not The Holy Spirit and it was of The Most Holy, not individuals, and had nothing related to Salvation about it.

Again, Jesus Casting into Unquenchable Fire, by figuratively, 'baptising', with Fire, is a figure of speech. The will be in The Lake of Fire.

"The church", is not a Bible Reality, where Satan has invented a different meaning that would include "all saved people".

"Church", in The Bible, is always a called- out assembly.

So, that, also, is a misreading, misconception, misinterpretation, and deliberate lie.

The doctrines of baptisms were by purely unsaved false religious goofballs.

Jesus immersing those whom He saves in the Holy Spirit is not figurative. And it is not doctrines but doctrine [singular] of baptisms. And anyone calling the word of God a lie, if one does that, is untenable. Hebrews 6:2, ". . . Of doctrine of baptisms, . . ."

 

[Alan Gross]

Doctrine of baptisms was nothing to do with God and nothing to do with whether 'doctrine', is plural or not.

There is not a Teaching in The Bible were immersion is used in any way, with regard to Salvation.

That is why it is not in there.

Jesus baptised His church, figuratively, with The Shakinah Glory of God, to publically inaugurate His church that had already been fully functional, beforehand.

3,000 souls were Saved and added to.... them..... who were 'them'... Jesus' church that He Had just Given Another Comforter.

The 3,000 were Saved, first, then they obeyed The Lord's Command to join a Biblically faithful church of His.

That was The First Baptist Bible Believer's that had John's Scriptural Baptist Bible baptism, by The Authority of God., at Jerusalem.

Jesus had other churches with Scriptural Baptist a baptism, by The Authority of God.

At the time of The Revelation, He Wrote to seven of them.

They have been here ever since, as His FULFILLMENT of His Promise to Be.

Yes, apostate religious societies have had their Candlestick Removed by Jesus.

That is called, "The Glory of The Lord has departed".

That is way any given random person anywhere is so lame at the nuances of various Bible interpretations.

They are in the World instead of sitting at The Feet of Jesus, where Jesus Has His stars in His Hand.

 

[NoQuieroUnQueso]

Was the thief on the cross baptized?

 

[mailmandan]

Baptism is not a good work. Baptism is a positive ordinance of the New Testament church. Baptism is not optional for a believer. If you are looking for good works, all you have to do is read Ephesians 2:10 which reads, "For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them." Baptism stands apart from this.

How does baptism stand apart from being a good work? It's the first act of obedience which follows conversion/having been created in Christ Jesus. How is that not a good work? In Matthew 3:13-15, we read - Then Jesus came from Galilee to John at the Jordan to be baptized by him. 14 And John tried to prevent Him, saying, "I need to be baptized by You, and are You coming to me?" 15 But Jesus answered and said to him, "Permit it to be so now, for thus it is fitting for us to fulfill all righteousness." Then he allowed Him. I see water baptism as a "work of righteousness" which can not be dissected from being a good work and what do we read in Titus 3:5 in regards to works of righteousness? It was according to His mercy that He saved us and it was not by works of righteousness which we have done.

 

[mailmandan]

In regards to the word "water" in John 3:5, there are those who would argue that the natural sense of the passage parallels "water" with being born out of a mother’s womb (verse 4) and with "flesh" (verse 6). According to that view, Jesus told Nicodemus that in order to see the kingdom of God two births are necessary. The first is a physical, literal, "flesh" birth (which is, of course, accompanied by amniotic "water") and the second is Spirit. By stating, "that which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit" in verse 6, Jesus was addressing Nicodemus' question in verse 4, yet afterwards, Jesus goes right back to stressing that "you must be born" again in verse 7. In John 3:3, Jesus clearly stated that "except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God," which goes deeper than plain, ordinary H20.

There are others who would argue that "water" is used in the Bible as an emblem of the word of God, and in such uses it is associated with cleansing or washing. (John 15:3; Ephesians 5:26) When we are born again, the Holy Spirit begets new life, Divine life, so that we are said to become "partakers of the divine nature" (2 Peter 1:4). The new birth is brought to pass through "incorruptible seed, by the Word of God, which lives and abides forever" (I Peter 1:23), but the Holy Spirit is Who accomplishes the miracle of regeneration.

There are also others who would argue that Jesus mentions "living water" in (John 4:10,14; 7:37-39) and in John 7:38-39, we read - "He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water. But this He spoke concerning the Spirit.. *The Holy Spirit is the source of living water and spiritual cleansing. If "water" is arbitrarily defined as baptism, then we could just as justifiably say, "Out of his heart will flow rivers of living baptism" in John 7:38, which of course would not make sense. So to automatically read "baptism" into John 3:5 simply because it mentions "water" is unwarranted.

 

[Reformed]

How does baptism stand apart from being a good work? It's the first act of obedience which follows conversion/having been created in Christ Jesus. How is that not a good work? In Matthew 3:13-15, we read - Then Jesus came from Galilee to John at the Jordan to be baptized by him. 14 And John tried to prevent Him, saying, "I need to be baptized by You, and are You coming to me?" 15 But Jesus answered and said to him, "Permit it to be so now, for thus it is fitting for us to fulfill all righteousness." Then he allowed Him. I see water baptism as a "work of righteousness" which can not be dissected from being a good work and what do we read in Titus 3:5 in regards to works of righteousness? It was according to His mercy that He saved us and it was not by works of righteousness which we have done.

The reason I am not classifying baptism as a good work is because it is a command that is substantially different than what we typically consider good works to be. Believe and be baptized go together (Matthew 28:19; Acts 8:13, 36-37; 16:33). Baptism is a positive ordinance; something all believers are commanded to do. Good works are typically through deeds of love and ministry from believer to believer (John 13:34-25; 15:12; Acts 1:27; James 2:14-26; 1 John 3:18). I do not disagree with you that baptism is in keeping with righteousness but I see it categorically different than good works.

 

[Alan Gross]

In regards to the word "water" in John 3:5, there are those who would argue that the natural sense of the passage parallels "water" with being born out of a mother’s womb (verse 4) and with "flesh" (verse 6). According to that view, Jesus told Nicodemus that in order to see the kingdom of God two births are necessary. The first is a physical, literal, "flesh" birth (which is, of course, accompanied by amniotic "water") and the second is Spirit. By stating, "that which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit" in verse 6, Jesus was addressing Nicodemus' question in verse 4, yet afterwards, Jesus goes right back to stressing that "you must be born" again in verse 7. In John 3:3, Jesus clearly stated that "except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God," which goes deeper than plain, ordinary H20.

There are others who would argue that "water" is used in the Bible as an emblem of the word of God, and in such uses it is associated with cleansing or washing. (John 15:3; Ephesians 5:26) When we are born again, the Holy Spirit begets new life, Divine life, so that we are said to become "partakers of the divine nature" (2 Peter 1:4). The new birth is brought to pass through "incorruptible seed, by the Word of God, which lives and abides forever" (I Peter 1:23), but the Holy Spirit is Who accomplishes the miracle of regeneration.

There are also others who would argue that Jesus mentions "living water" in (John 4:10,14; 7:37-39) and in John 7:38-39, we read - "He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water. But this He spoke concerning the Spirit.. *The Holy Spirit is the source of living water and spiritual cleansing. If "water" is arbitrarily defined as baptism, then we could just as justifiably say, "Out of his heart will flow rivers of living baptism" in John 7:38, which of course would not make sense. So to automatically read "baptism" into John 3:5 simply because it mentions "water" is unwarranted.

It's water in that verse.

The second and third group you mentioned need to consider how to read.

 

[37818]

@Alan Gross, I agree with you on "one baptism," Ephesians 4:5, is what we call the ordinance of water baptism. And nowhere in the word of God is it done in order to be saved (includeing Mark 16:16). And it is a matter of obedience to the command of Christ, Matthew 28:19, Acts of the Apostles 10:47-48.

New Doctrine of baptisms was nothing to do with God and nothing to do with whether 'doctrine', is plural or not.

Now we do not agree on this. And you can contend your view on that.

The writer of Hebrews argues, ". . . For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat. For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe. But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil. Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. And this will we do, if God permit. . . ." -- Hebrews 5:12-14; Hebrews 6:1-3, on the milk of God's word.

 

[NoQuieroUnQueso]

So, if a guy gets saved on a Wednesday and wants to get baptised on a Sunday, but dies that Saturday, he's going to hell?

Did the theif on the cross get baptised?

 

[Alan Gross]

@Alan Gross, I agree with you on "one baptism," Ephesians 4:5, is what we call the ordinance of water baptism. And nowhere in the word of God is it done in order to be saved (includeing Mark 16:16). And it is a matter of obedience to the command of Christ, Matthew 28:19, Acts of the Apostles 10:47-48.

Now we do not agree on this. And you can contend your view on that.

The writer of Hebrews argues, ". . . For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat. For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe. But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil. Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. And this will we do, if God permit. . . ." -- Hebrews 5:12-14; Hebrews 6:1-3, on the milk of God's word.

Englishman's Hebrew and Greek Concordance (or similar) follow the Middle-Eastern languages to give the underlying word, regardless of how the English is translated, as you may very well know.

I was referring to this:
(figurative) ceremonial washings

"10 Which. stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation."

"it is best to interpret this of the divers baptisms among the Jews, spoken of in ( Hebrews 9:10 ) which had a doctrine in them, to that people;

" teaching them the cleansing virtue of the blood of Christ, and leading them to it, to wash in for sin, and for uncleanness;

" but now, since this blood was shed, they were no more to teach nor learn the doctrine of cleansing by the blood of Christ this way;

"nor any more to be led unto it through these divers baptisms, ablutions, and purifications."

 

[Alan Gross]

*

It's water in that verse.

The second and third group you mentioned need to consider how to read.

Yes, the second paragraph 'group' are arbitrarily defining "water" as The Holy Spirit,

and the third paragraph 'group', as you say:

If "water" is arbitrarily defined as baptism,

Jesus Gives The Divine Interpretation of what He is Saying.

...

There is a President of The United States, Ukraine, and Russia, but the President who left Washington D.C., to speak and Campaign for Republicans here in Kentucky last night,

... is not to be arbitrarily said that The President of The U.S., The President of Ukraine, and/ or the President of Russia, visited here and spoke last night,

...for no other reason than that the word, 'President', is associated with them all...

 

[Reformed]

So, if a guy gets saved on a Wednesday and wants to get baptised on a Sunday, but dies that Saturday, he's going to hell?

Did the theif on the cross get baptised?

Of course not! If a person is providentially hindered then they are providentially hindered.

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk

 

[Yeshua1]

Baptism is not required for salvation, although it is required as an act of obedience. Jesus commanded the disciples to make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Trinity (Matthew 28:19). Refusal to be baptized indicates a rebellious heart. Of course, I am not referring to those individuals who are providentially hindered from being baptized.

There are two types of New Testament baptism and they are categorically different. Spiritual baptism is synonymous with the new birth (c.f. Ephesians 1:13). The other baptism is water baptism. The two are different, although the latter reflects the reality of the first.





Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro

One can be saved apart from water baptism, but spiritual Baptism must occur in order to have been saved!

 

[Yeshua1]

There is the "Of the doctrine of baptisms."
John the baptist said, "I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire: Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and will gather the wheat into his garner; but the chaff he will burn with fire unquenchable."

Well, either John was inspired or he was wrong here!

 

[Yeshua1]

That is perfectly non-Biblical to deduce.

No concept of the Biblical churches Designed and Founded by Jesus have ever been Defined by God, as "including all saved people".

There is no such thing in existence and nothing like that has ever been in The Bible and it is still not.

A hybred invention of Satan in his development for perversions of New Testament brought that false teaching along to piggy-back on top of The Catholic heresies of "universal visable", or "universal invisible" and robbed Jesus Word, 'church', and adopted it to that Abomination.

Saved souls who do not join a New Testament church, as a member by Scriptural Baptism, are a part of The Kingdom of God, on Earth.

A Scriptural Baptised believer that is a member of The Kind of Churches Jesus Built, is a member of a Bible church.

"The church", and "the body", are generic usages of local assemblies.

"The husband" is the generic usage of that word.

Satan has not invented a Universal Husband to which all wives are married, but he is heavily messing with God's Creation of male and female, isn't he?

Satan invented a false 'church' concept, just like he twists up everything else.

Your continued assumption that there is something that says that if someone knows The Lord, then they become a part of it and that if someone says you are not that they are questioning your Salvation is just an extra-Biblical.

All Saved are in The Kingdom of God.

The Lord's churches are Real and Local Called-Out Assemblies, always, UNLESS SATAN IS INVOLVED IN THE PERVERSION OF GOD'S TEACHING ON CHURCH TRUTH, WHICH Satan most certainly happens to be.

Being easily deceived and Tricked by Satan does not mean someone doesn't know The Lord.

There is the Universal Body of Jesus, made up of those saved by Him and Baptized by the Holy Spirit, and those saved in local churches water baptized....

 

[Yeshua1]

But water baptism is a baptist distinctive for local church membership. Many baptist churches go so far as to require that baptism [immersion] to have been in at the very least in another Baptist fellowship.

Yes, many Baptist churches require believers water baptism in order to qualify for church membership, but the person already has been spiritually baptized before that happens!

 

[Yeshua1]

No, that verse refers to The Holy Spirit Leading those believers in Corinth to be water baptised into the fellowship and membership of The Lord's Organized assembly, there.

A commentary could explain the verse as:

"By One and The Self-Same Holy Spirit were all of us who are Saved in this location, Jews and Gentiles, Lead to Obey The Lord's Command to be baptised, by water, as Jesus Was, into this one, local, assembled, congregation, gathered here, at Corinth in Divine Capacity, as Founded by Jesus and Taught in The New Testament."

The Holy Spirit has never baptised anything.

The is no 'baptism' ever associated with Salvation, or 'union with Jesus'

... And there is no Biblical Teaching of a 'body', that all Saved individuals are are 'in', and certainly never entered into some 'body' that isn't Taught, as having any relationship to The Holy Spirit, or baptism.

...

That isn't actually Taught in those verses any more than The Charismatic error you mentioned, which they suppose includes 'gifts'.

...
Neither are 'Taught'.

There needs to be very careful observance to what God is Teaching.

Hybred inventions jump out with help from Supernatural Evil influence, but aren't there after being on our knees and seeking God's Face.

The teaching refers to the Church in general, the body of Christ, not the local churches!

 

[Yeshua1]

All Saved souls are Commanded by God to be water baptised into A Scripturally Organized church of His.

One of Jesus' churches that Teaches and Practices Scriptural Baptism are Baptist by Name, in the sense of those who are Scripturally Organized and are Built with Scripturally Baptised Believers, by The Authority of God.

All believers are Commanded by God to be Scripturally baptised with Baptist Baptism, as defined by The New Testament.

That is the baptism Jesus was baptised with and all those who were Saved in The New Testament.

Outside The churches that Jesus Built, there is no Authority to Baptiste that is from God, and certainly No Command by God to play church at all, much less, however anyone thinks or to fish without a license, using poison bait.

Are you a landmark Baptist, or a primitive Baptist?

 

[Alan Gross]

"There is the Universal Body of Jesus, made up of those saved by Him"

Not in the Bible, there isn't.

I am talking about Bible concepts that are of God.

Manmade concepts you're mentioning were invented as perversions of God's Bible Design and Teachings, by Satan, to deceive.

Baptized by the Holy Spirit,

[/QUOTE]

The Holy Spirit has never baptised anything.