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Featured Single Predestination

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by ivdavid, Dec 19, 2019.

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  1. MB

    MB Well-Known Member

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    Good for you I salute you for your efforts though I do not see any results. You want to love them into truth.
    In our efforts to be as Christ like as possible. We have to remember that Christ debated with the pharisee's and plainly told them the truth even though it always hurts. He did not use kid gloves on them.He called them hypocrites. So are you sure Kid gloves are the best way to go. Before you tell me I'm not Christ. I'd like to say in advance that I am not though I try to imitate Him.
    MB.
     
    #41 MB, Dec 20, 2019
  2. Particular

    Particular Well-Known Member

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    Christ was addressing people of the promise. Notice that one of these person's was a centurion in the Roman army.
    Those who are not people of the promise are blind.
    Unfortunately, you are thinking election pertains to ethnicity rather than to the promise.
     
    #42 Particular, Dec 20, 2019
  3. ivdavid

    ivdavid Active Member

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    Let's be precise in our premises. The elect are chosen of God for God's promise of salvation. It's important not to conflate the phrase "promise of salvation" into simply "salvation". The non-elect are not given this promise of God - but that doesn't necessarily mean God cannot or does not desire to provide them His means of salvation. It just doesn't come with the guarantee of His promise - but God could and in some cases does provide conditional mercy in giving a new heart and His Holy Spirit to say a king Saul while He gives His unconditional sure mercies to David and Solomon.

    Such mercies of God to the non-elect are conditioned upon their faith, which they choose to fall away from by their own doing. Having filled their measure of iniquity, they are now completed for destruction - which God sometimes chooses to bring about through hardening them. And that's what we see described of Israel at Jesus' coming, especially in Rom 9-11. But as I've argued earlier here - God's hardening of hearts is what happens after their filling up of iniquity and not before. Matt 23:37 occurs before God's hardening of Israel, right?

    What knowledge of the Lord and Savior (2Pet 2:20-21, Heb 10:26) do these non-elect seem to have been enlightened with (Heb 6:4) and what repentance can't they be renewed unto (Heb 6:6)?
     
    #43 ivdavid, Dec 20, 2019
  4. ivdavid

    ivdavid Active Member

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    Interesting side note. I am inclined to read that as specifically to work out God's redemption in mankind through the death of the flesh and life in the spirit, which wouldn't be possible if they'd eaten of the tree of life resulting in the flesh never to die.

    But yes, the flesh must not glory for it profits nothing. But why does that prevent God from giving the non-elect a new heart and giving His Spirit conditionally when that too proves God alone is good and that the flesh profits nothing?
     
    #44 ivdavid, Dec 20, 2019
  5. ivdavid

    ivdavid Active Member

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    I'm mostly sure you do believe in the doctrine of Original sin. Why do you then say that we were created by God in a fallen and blinded condition - God created everything good and man fell, being overcome by sin in the flesh. And each of us would've fallen the exact same way in Eden, given the exact same nature. So, instead of repeatedly demonstrating our own individual culpability in the garden for every single person of the billions of humans across generations, God simply let us continue the effects by flesh giving birth to flesh. So, I'd still say God created us good and we fell into our fallen and blinded condition. But yes, in an overall sense, God did decree that our fall must occur in that He created us in the flesh without preserving us in His Spirit to begin with.
     
    #45 ivdavid, Dec 20, 2019
  6. ivdavid

    ivdavid Active Member

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    I am in complete agreement with this.

    Just clarifying - when you earlier said "That thinking disallows God's provisions to draw everyone and everyone is allowed to resist.", were you stating your belief or making a counter-argument using a contradiction? Because if "everyone is allowed to resist", then none will be saved, right?
     
    #46 ivdavid, Dec 20, 2019
  7. ivdavid

    ivdavid Active Member

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    Say I laid out a feast of only desserts and called outside for any and everybody to come in and eat, but then still shared my true observation that only those with a sweet tooth will enter my feast - wouldn't you agree that this is quite different from me going out and inviting only those with a sweet tooth to come in and eat?
     
    #47 ivdavid, Dec 20, 2019
  8. Scott Downey

    Scott Downey Well-Known Member

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    Only the elect actually obtain salvation, here is the way Peter preaches it.
    Only God's elect are begotten again into a living hope.

    I divided it into letters to show how this work.

    1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ,
    a. To God’s elect, exiles scattered throughout the provinces of Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia and Bithynia,
    b. who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father,
    c. through the sanctifying work of the Spirit,
    d. to be obedient to Jesus Christ
    e. and sprinkled with his blood:
    f. Grace and peace be yours in abundance.

    3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His abundant mercy has begotten us again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 to an inheritance incorruptible and undefiled and that does not fade away, reserved in heaven for you, 5 who are kept by the power of God through faith for salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

    Notice Hebrews 9:28 agrees about the salvation which will be revealed at the return of Christ, at the end of the age, the last time Peter speaks of.
    28 so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation.
     
    #48 Scott Downey, Dec 20, 2019
    Last edited: Dec 20, 2019
  9. ivdavid

    ivdavid Active Member

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    I uphold Single Predestination - so yes, I too believe only the elect actually obtain salvation. I too believe that on Judgement Day, all the non-elect will end up being condemned. It's just the process and the 'when' that we may disagree on.

    Calvinists believe God chose to condemn the non-elect at the same time He chose to promise salvation to the elect, before any man's good or evil. That very well could've been so if only God hadn't further revealed His desire for all, non-elect included, to repent and live. This desire is in direct internal contradiction with a predestined decree of God Himself.

    Consequently, single predestination holds God as conditionally desiring and providing the means of salvation to the non-elect too without any predestined decree of a promise nor of condemnation. And the non-elect reject and fall away from such an offer of love, filling up their measure of iniquity - after which God decrees condemnation over them, possibly through hardening of their hearts unto His glory.
     
    #49 ivdavid, Dec 20, 2019
  10. Scott Downey

    Scott Downey Well-Known Member

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    The non-elect cant respond positively to the gospel and can not bear good fruit to God.
    Refer to the parable of the sower sowing the seed. Only one type fell on the good ground and bore much fruit. none of the other bore any fruit to maturity. That good soil was the prepared heart of the new birth, a work that God did in their life, so that caused them to be fruitful and multiply.
    If you do not bear good fruit to God, you are cut down and cast into the fire where is wailing and gnashing of teeth.
    Jesus tells his disciples that they will bear much fruit to the glory of God, by their bearing much fruit, the Father is glorified.

    Romans 8 tells us about the carnal mind, how it can not be submitted to God's laws, it is at enmity with God.
    And contrast that with the spiritually minded which does please God, they are in Christ. The carnal mind, who are the non-elect, are at war with God will never submit to following Christ, it is why you must be born again first.

    5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

    7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. 8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

    9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. 10 And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
     
    #50 Scott Downey, Dec 20, 2019
  11. ivdavid

    ivdavid Active Member

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    Can't the non-elect be enlightened with the truth of the knowledge of Jesus Christ and be led to repentance if their hardened soil is replaced with a new heart by God's grace? Regeneration does lead to repentance, right?

    But yes, the elect are rebirthed in the spirit too in addition to having their hearts and minds regenerated and hence they persevere to the end whereas the flesh, being washed, still chooses to fall away and return to the mud (2Pet 2:22) - thereby always in enmity to God and never pleasing to Him, and impossible to be renewed again to repentance (Heb 6:6).
     
    #51 ivdavid, Dec 20, 2019
  12. MB

    MB Well-Known Member

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    The Jews were the only ones ever called elect.
    You should think the same because there are no Gentiles ever called elect. Jerusalem was in occupation by the Roman army they were every where that does not mean they believed.
    MB.
     
    #52 MB, Dec 20, 2019
  13. Particular

    Particular Well-Known Member

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    So Abraham wasn't elect? Noah wasn't elect? Enoch wasn't elect?
    Sorry, MB, you have misappropriated who is and is not elect. Elect is not in reference to national heritage. That was the faulty thinking Jesus was trying to correct in Israel.
     
    #53 Particular, Dec 20, 2019
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  14. MB

    MB Well-Known Member

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    Then you believe as they do. Can you show me where scripture says Gentiles are elect.?
     
    #54 MB, Dec 20, 2019
  15. MB

    MB Well-Known Member

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    It is for the Jews not gentiles. There were no Jews until Jacob. And you are right Abraham, Noah, and Enoch, were not elect because it hadn't happened yet.
    MB
     
    #55 MB, Dec 20, 2019
  16. ivdavid

    ivdavid Active Member

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    Rom 16:13 - Rufus is a jew with a roman name in Rome? Col 3:12 - only jews in Colossae? 1Tim 5:21 - angels are jewish? Rom 8:31-39 - does the elect "us" refer to only jews in Rome?
    What truth is gained in such profiling?
     
    #56 ivdavid, Dec 20, 2019
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  17. MB

    MB Well-Known Member

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    None of that proves they were elected. as is the Jews and you know it. Being chosen for what you are assuming?. God said He calls the jews.elect. He refers to them as mine elect. It appears it was Paul who chose Rufus. The only thing to prove that is for God to say He has elected them to Salvation as they claim leaving the rest to go to hell.
    MB
     
    #57 MB, Dec 20, 2019
  18. Scott Downey

    Scott Downey Well-Known Member

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    If God gives to them the new birth, then they are of the elect.
    That is how the New Covenant works.
    with the new birth, God puts His laws in their minds and writes them upon their hearts, and then He says I will be their God, and they will be my people. And he forgives them all of their sin.

    And recall, you dont put new wine into old wine skins...If anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation.

    Hebrews 8
    7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for a second. 8 Because finding fault with them, He says: “Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah— 9 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they did not continue in My covenant, and I disregarded them, says the Lord. 10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 11 None of them shall teach his neighbor, and none his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them. 12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more.”
    13 In that He says, “A new covenant,” He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.
    Footnotes:
     
    #58 Scott Downey, Dec 20, 2019
    Last edited: Dec 20, 2019
  19. MB

    MB Well-Known Member

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    Not every person chosen is of the elect. Jesus Chose Judas so was his election to Salvation or damnation.
    MB
     
    #59 MB, Dec 20, 2019
  20. Particular

    Particular Well-Known Member

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    MB, you should realize that you are living on an island with your position that only people of Jewish lineage are or can be elect.
    You ignore the covenants of promise and apply a very narrow understanding of how elect is applied.
     
    #60 Particular, Dec 20, 2019
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