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Fixing points of disagreement.

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by 37818, Dec 26, 2019.

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  1. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    On both sides of the isle, each person who thinks they disagree with an opposing view needs to make clear the truth one believes.

    I agree with "Total deprivity." Why? Because the word of God explicitly states none understand and seek God, Romans 3:11 (Psalms 14:2).

    I disagree with "Unconditional election." Because the election is God's and is wholly to be unmerited by those He chooses (James 2:5, Ephesians 2:8-9).

    Now I disagree with "Limited atonement." It should be noted, John Owen's book thourghly defends that position, I disagree with, in his book, Death of Death in the Death of Christ. He answers most all of the objections to that view.

    Truth should not be denied. But needs to be defended.
     
    #1 37818, Dec 26, 2019
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  2. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    Could you clarify your ideas on election and where did you find John Owen to be wrong?
    Unconditional election is totally unmerited.
     
    #2 Iconoclast, Dec 26, 2019
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  3. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
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    OK then - I asked our brother Tom Cassidy (he has since gone to heaven) this question - how can we be totally depraved if we are made in the image of GOD?

    I know we are powerless, hopeless and helpless to save ourselves and fell into that estate with our earthly father Adam.
    but i do have a problem calling a being made in the image of God "Totally Depraved"
     
    #3 HankD, Dec 26, 2019
  4. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
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    What did he say?
     
    #4 Revmitchell, Dec 26, 2019
  5. Reformed1689

    Reformed1689 Well-Known Member

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    I guess first, what do you think it means to be totally depraved?
     
    #5 Reformed1689, Dec 26, 2019
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  6. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    That image while still in us has been damaged and broken by the fall into spiritual death, resulting in physical death.
    The 10 commandments are in our conscience, but the ability to will and obey has been twisted and perverted
     
    #6 Iconoclast, Dec 26, 2019
  7. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
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    we had a discussion about that and came to the conclusion that there is no way that the image of God could be corrupted by our depravity which means that we are helpless and hopeless to affect our own salvation. dead in trespass and sin.
    yet we are made in His image.
    i know it sounds like rhetoric and a non-answer but that's as far as we got.
     
    #7 HankD, Dec 26, 2019
  8. Reformed1689

    Reformed1689 Well-Known Member

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    No, I asked what do YOU think it means to be totally depraved. Though some people like to call it radically depraved.
     
    #8 Reformed1689, Dec 26, 2019
  9. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    Two things here. I consider "unmerited" as a condition in order to be elect. The Calvinist understanding unmerited is understood to mean "unconditional." That is at the very least a fundamental piont of disagreement in terminology.

    With John Owen the disagreement is over a general redemption. I hold the view the rdemption does two things. First to secure salvation for God's elect . . . .
     
    #9 37818, Dec 26, 2019
  10. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    I do not know if you are going to like my answer. There are some issues. After finite good mankind (Adam and Eve) became sinful by obtaining what was the infinite good God's knowledge of good and evil (Genesis 3:22) God still counted mankind in His image, Genesis 9:6.
     
    #10 37818, Dec 26, 2019
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  11. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
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    "No, I asked what do YOU think it means to be totally depraved. Though some people like to call it radically depraved."

    well, those words 'total depravity' are never used in scripture so here is what it is to me.

    we are a race dead in trespass and sin, the whole race, from cradle to grave,

    Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

    The human heart is deceitful and wicked beyond comprehension.

    Jeremiah 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

     
    #11 HankD, Dec 26, 2019
    Last edited: Dec 26, 2019
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