Fixing points of disagreement.

[37818]

On both sides of the isle, each person who thinks they disagree with an opposing view needs to make clear the truth one believes.

I agree with "Total deprivity." Why? Because the word of God explicitly states none understand and seek God, Romans 3:11 (Psalms 14:2).

I disagree with "Unconditional election." Because the election is God's and is wholly to be unmerited by those He chooses (James 2:5, Ephesians 2:8-9).

Now I disagree with "Limited atonement." It should be noted, John Owen's book thourghly defends that position, I disagree with, in his book, Death of Death in the Death of Christ. He answers most all of the objections to that view.

Truth should not be denied. But needs to be defended.

 

[Iconoclast]

On both sides of the isle, each person who thinks they disagree with an opposing view needs to make clear the truth one believes.

I agree with "Total deprivity." Why? Because the word of God explicitly states none understand and seek God, Romans 3:11 (Psalms 14:2).

I disagree with "Unconditional election." Because the election is God's and is wholly to be unmerited by those He chooses (James 2:5, Ephesians 2:8-9).

Now I disagree with "Limited atonement." It should be noted, John Owen's book thourghly defends that position, I disagree with, in his book, Death of Death in the Death of Christ. He answers most all of the objections to that view.

Truth should not be denied. But needs to be defended.

Could you clarify your ideas on election and where did you find John Owen to be wrong?
Unconditional election is totally unmerited.

 

[HankD]

On both sides of the isle, each person who thinks they disagree with an opposing view needs to make clear the truth one believes.

I agree with "Total deprivity." Why? Because the word of God explicitly states none understand and seek God, Romans 3:11 (Psalms 14:2).

Truth should not be denied. But needs to be defended.

OK then - I asked our brother Tom Cassidy (he has since gone to heaven) this question - how can we be totally depraved if we are made in the image of GOD?

I know we are powerless, hopeless and helpless to save ourselves and fell into that estate with our earthly father Adam.
but i do have a problem calling a being made in the image of God "Totally Depraved"

 

[Revmitchell]

OK then - I asked our brother Tom Cassidy (he has since gone to heaven) this question - how can we be totally depraved if we are made in the image of GOD?

What did he say?

 

[Reformed1689]

I know we are powerless, hopeless and helpless to save ourselves and fell into that estate with our earthly father Adam.
but i do have a problem calling a being made in the image of God "Totally Depraved"

I guess first, what do you think it means to be totally depraved?

 

[Iconoclast]

OK then - I asked our brother Tom Cassidy (he has since gone to heaven) this question - how can we be totally depraved if we are made in the image of GOD?

I know we are powerless, hopeless and helpless to save ourselves and fell into that estate with our earthly father Adam.
but i do have a problem calling a being made in the image of God "Totally Depraved"

That image while still in us has been damaged and broken by the fall into spiritual death, resulting in physical death.
The 10 commandments are in our conscience, but the ability to will and obey has been twisted and perverted

 

[HankD]

What did he say?

I guess first, what do you think it means to be totally depraved?

we had a discussion about that and came to the conclusion that there is no way that the image of God could be corrupted by our depravity which means that we are helpless and hopeless to affect our own salvation. dead in trespass and sin.
yet we are made in His image.
i know it sounds like rhetoric and a non-answer but that's as far as we got.

 

[Reformed1689]

we had a discussion about that and came to the conclusion that there is no way that the image of God could be corrupted by our depravity which means that we are helpless and hopeless to affect our own salvation. dead in trespass and sin.
yet we are made in His image.
i know it sounds like rhetoric and a non-answer but that's as far as we got.

No, I asked what do YOU think it means to be totally depraved. Though some people like to call it radically depraved.

 

[37818]

Could you clarify your ideas on election and where did you find John Owen to be wrong?
Unconditional election is totally unmerited.

Two things here. I consider "unmerited" as a condition in order to be elect. The Calvinist understanding unmerited is understood to mean "unconditional." That is at the very least a fundamental piont of disagreement in terminology.

With John Owen the disagreement is over a general redemption. I hold the view the rdemption does two things. First to secure salvation for God's elect . . . .

 

[37818]

OK then - I asked our brother Tom Cassidy (he has since gone to heaven) this question - how can we be totally depraved if we are made in the image of GOD?

I know we are powerless, hopeless and helpless to save ourselves and fell into that estate with our earthly father Adam.
but i do have a problem calling a being made in the image of God "Totally Depraved"

I do not know if you are going to like my answer. There are some issues. After finite good mankind (Adam and Eve) became sinful by obtaining what was the infinite good God's knowledge of good and evil (Genesis 3:22) God still counted mankind in His image, Genesis 9:6.

 

[HankD]

"No, I asked what do YOU think it means to be totally depraved. Though some people like to call it radically depraved."

well, those words 'total depravity' are never used in scripture so here is what it is to me.

we are a race dead in trespass and sin, the whole race, from cradle to grave,

Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

The human heart is deceitful and wicked beyond comprehension.

Jeremiah 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

we had a discussion about that and came to the conclusion that there is no way that the image of God could be corrupted by our depravity which means that we are helpless and hopeless to affect our own salvation. dead in trespass and sin.
yet we are made in His image.
i know it sounds like rhetoric and a non-answer but that's as far as we got.