Rise of Calvinism pt.2

[Iconoclast]

Several questions were looking for answers when pt.1 was closed;


JonC posted:
[QUOTE]After a long period of prayer and study I came to accept Calvinism. I kept what was true of my previous belief and "spit out the bones".

After years of being a Calvinist (preaching and teaching Calvinism)[/QUOTE]


Where did this preaching and teaching take place JonC?

What is the name of that church?

What confession of faith did it use?

I came to realize there were key elements that did not fit with Scripture. Ultimately I was led out of Calvinism through prayer and the study of Scripture

Did the whole congregation get confused?

Did they ask you to leave?

Did the whole congregation adopt your new measures?

 

[Iconoclast]

In post 113...did this get an answer?
Definite atonement is the hinge on which Calvinism pivots. Christ died to atone for the sins of the Elect. If that is so, then how can any elect person resist the effectual call? They cannot.

 

[Iconoclast]

post #115a
Back to the opening post for a moment. If Calvinism is on the rise, where so and how so?

It would be a prideful statement for me to say that you find Calvinism being taught only in churches who take the word of God seriously. Serious study takes place for all sorts of theological positions whether or not we are in agreement with those positions. I believe Calvinism is on the rise because those that teach it are doing so by clearly presenting what the Bible has to say on predestination and election. It is the Word that is piercing hearts, not men

 

[Iconoclast]

JON C said;

Scholars abound on all sides. Calvinists and non-Calvinists alike diligently study Scripture, pray, and devote their lives to following God as best they can.

Yet Christians arrive at different conclusions - not because one theology is "God given" but because we see now as through a glass dimly, we know in part. The difference is not spiritual maturity but the finite nature of human understanding.

I do not agree with the first remark...It is not balanced...

I do believe the theology is God given.

 

[Iconoclast]

in post 134

I agree but this does not mean there are multiple truths on the same issue.

A Synergist brother may be completely convinced that his view his correct based on his study of the scriptures. Likewise, I am totally convinced that the Monergist view is correct based on my study of the scriptures. Both of us may have goodwill towards the other but we both believe the other is wrong. Depending on the importance of the disagreement we may choose to just put it aside and continue on. Some disagreements make continued partnership in ministry untenable. Those are bridges to be crossed at that time.

Reformed zeroed in on the key issue in the red bolded portion.

 

[Iconoclast]

JonC posted
post140
That is why I have never (and will never) be
anti-Calvinist or anti-free-will theologian. Both places men in opposition to God.

JonC#160

I agree. Calvinism does not put believers in opposition to God.

Which is it???

 

[Reformed]

in post 134


Reformed zeroed in on the key issue in the red bolded portion.

Most of the doctrines we debate on the Baptist Board are not new. Solomon spoke truly, "there is nothing new under the sun" (Ecclesiastes 1:9). It is tempting to act as if none of these things have ever been debated before and somehow we hold the keys of understanding. I know I have fallen into that trap on more than one occasion. All we can do is present what we consider to be the truth and leave the rest in God's hands.

 

[Iconoclast]

Most of the doctrines we debate on the Baptist Board are not new. Solomon spoke truly, "there is nothing new under the sun" (Ecclesiastes 1:9). It is tempting to act as if none of these things have ever been debated before and somehow we hold the keys of understanding. I know I have fallen into that trap on more than one occasion. All we can do is present what we consider to be the truth and leave the rest in God's hands.

The idea that we cannot know the truth or true doctrine is contrary to Biblical teaching.
We are meant to not only get a grasp on truth , but run with it.
The idea that truth is so mysterious that we must fragment it, and entertain odd disproven ideas is counter-productive.

Buy the truth, sell it not.
2tim1
12 For the which cause I also suffer these things: nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day.

13 Hold fast the form of sound words, which thou hast heard of me, in faith and love which is in Christ Jesus.

14 That good thing which was committed unto thee keep by the Holy Ghost which dwelleth in us.

 

[Reformed]

The idea that we cannot know the truth or true doctrine is contrary to Biblical teaching.
We are meant to not only get a grasp on truth , but run with it.
The idea that truth is so mysterious that we must fragment it, and entertain odd disproven ideas is counter-productive.

Buy the truth, sell it not.
2tim1
12 For the which cause I also suffer these things: nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day.

13 Hold fast the form of sound words, which thou hast heard of me, in faith and love which is in Christ Jesus.

14 That good thing which was committed unto thee keep by the Holy Ghost which dwelleth in us.

Brother, that is not my point. We can know the truth and we should know the truth. But can either of us force someone to see the truth as we see it? Sometimes we have to leave the matter with God and realize that it is the Holy Spirit who effects change, not us.

 

[MB]

Brother, that is not my point. We can know the truth and we should know the truth. But can either of us force someone to see the truth as we see it? Sometimes we have to leave the matter with God and realize that it is the Holy Spirit who effects change, not us.

You think you have a perfect doctrine. I wonder how you'd react to find God not being happy with Calvinism.
MB

 

[Yeshua1]

Brother, that is not my point. We can know the truth and we should know the truth. But can either of us force someone to see the truth as we see it? Sometimes we have to leave the matter with God and realize that it is the Holy Spirit who effects change, not us.

I think that while Calvinism explains the process God uses to save lost sinners, and that it does give clarity to the overall message of the scriptures, its neither perfect theology or the only one that a real Christian can hold! I would not agree with Spurgeon that it is the gospel, but would that it best explains it!

 

[Yeshua1]

You think you have a perfect doctrine. I wonder how you'd react to find God not being happy with Calvinism.
MB

Think Calvinism is not perfect theology, but that it explains the perfect theology of the Bible the best!

 

[MB]

You need a theology to explain the theology of the Bible. I read and understand it as it is.
MB

 

[Iconoclast]

Think Calvinism is not perfect theology, but that it explains the perfect theology of the Bible the best!

Which part do you think is not complete?
Which part does it not explain that the perfect theology of the bible does explain?

 

[Iconoclast]

Several questions were looking for answers when pt.1 was closed;


JonC posted:
[QUOTE]After a long period of prayer and study I came to accept Calvinism. I kept what was true of my previous belief and "spit out the bones".

After years of being a Calvinist (preaching and teaching Calvinism)

Where did this preaching and teaching take place JonC?

What is the name of that church?

What confession of faith did it use?



Did the whole congregation get confused?

Did they ask you to leave?

Did the whole congregation adopt your new measures?[/QUOTE]
JonC....
Where was this congregation?
Did it have a name?
When you left after discovering what you describe as the "classic view"...did it cause a split?

 

[Yeshua1]

Which part do you think is not complete?
Which part does it not explain that the perfect theology of the bible does explain?

I fully agree with its view on Sotierology, but not so sure on eschatology!

 

[Yeshua1]

Where did this preaching and teaching take place JonC?

What is the name of that church?

What confession of faith did it use?



Did the whole congregation get confused?

Did they ask you to leave?

Did the whole congregation adopt your new measures?

JonC....
Where was this congregation?
Did it have a name?
When you left after discovering what you describe as the "classic view"...did it cause a split?[/QUOTE]
What is this "classic view?"

 

[Iconoclast]

Brother, that is not my point. We can know the truth and we should know the truth. But can either of us force someone to see the truth as we see it? Sometimes we have to leave the matter with God and realize that it is the Holy Spirit who effects change, not us.

My response was not directed at you as we agree that God has to allow truth to be welcomed.
Someone indicated truth is not God given and objective, it is.
To understand it implies the work of the Spirit in illuminating hearts and minds, as per Eph 1.

 

[Yeshua1]

My response was not directed at you as we agree that God has to allow truth to be welcomed.
Someone indicated truth is not God given and objective, it is.
To understand it implies the work of the Spirit in illuminating hearts and minds, as per Eph 1.

The doctrines of the Bible are true, its theology is true, but NONE since Apostle John have had infallible understanding of it!

 

[Iconoclast]

JonC....
Where was this congregation?
Did it have a name?
When you left after discovering what you describe as the "classic view"...did it cause a split?

What is this "classic view?"[/QUOTE]
No one has heard of any such view?
This is a mystery indeed.
Maybe no one else has discovered it yet??