Yes. Scripture presents Jesus as submitting to the will of the Father in perfect obedience. This is, IMHO, faith.
-
Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
Faith of Jesus or In Jesus?
- Thread starter Yeshua1
- Start date
So God would then need to have faith?
In Himself. Yes, I suppose.
Ask yourself this, did the Son submit to the will of the Father and not do the Son's will but the will of Him who sent the Son?
Yes, but that was obedience, did not require faith!
I disagree.
who, when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered threatened not; but committed himself to him that judgeth righteously: 1 Pet 2:23
...and God did indeed judge righteously and raised Him from the dead, annulling the Jews' unrighteous judgement of Him.
The Bible states that Jesus entrusted Himself to God His Father, is that where you see faith?
He can submit to the father, does not mean is exercising faith as we do.
Kentucky I borrowed from your reference from the article on post #9... To this Old Line Sovereign Grace Primitive Baptist brother this is my thoughts exactly... 100% Christ and none of me... Brother Glen
Jesus has taken his place on our side of the covenant relationship with God. And in our place he has offered the perfect response of faith and faithfulness, wherein we are justified. We take our stand, according to Paul, upon his vicarious offering to the Father, upon his faith and faithfulness, that we may be justified not by our own works or faith, but by Jesus.’ We choose to be justified by Jesus’ faith and faithfulness, not our own.
The fruit of taking our stand on Jesus’ faith is peace, the cessation of striving to find a way to justify ourselves through anything that we may do, whether our own faith or works or religious activity of any sort. We cling to, hope in, and pin all our hopes on Jesus, and upon who he is and what he has done as our vicarious representative.
Failure here is simply to doom ourselves to live with ourselves and our faith and religious performance. To not believe in Jesus—and in his faith and faithfulness—is to sentence ourselves to believe in ourselves and in our own efforts, and it is to suffer living with the failed assurance of such a way of believing. So for Paul, we rest in Jesus himself, not in ourselves, and in resting in him, in believing in him, his own glory, knowledge, peace, joy, love and faith begin to have room to come to personal expression in us.
Btw... As a hardshell preacher friend of mine would say... HALLELUJAH!!!... WHAT A SAVIOR!!!
37818
Well-Known Member
The Greek for "of [the] Jesus Christ faith" ". . . πιστεως ιησου χριστου . . . ," is found 3 times in the NT that I could find. ". . . πιστεως χριστου . . . ," once.
Romans 3:22, ". . . Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: . . ."
Galatians 3:22, ". . . But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe. . . ."
Galations 2:16, ". . . Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. . . ."
Romans 3:22, ". . . Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: . . ."
Galatians 3:22, ". . . But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe. . . ."
Galations 2:16, ". . . Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. . . ."
George Antonios
Well-Known Member
Both have their place. When the Bible says faith of Christ it's saying the faith (oft in the sense of body of revelation) that is in connection to Jesus Christ, as opposed to the faith of Muhammad, or Buddha, for example. The following video, though about a wider topic, deals with the OP at the time-point 9:30:
So which verses, currently translated faith in Christ or faith of Christ should be translated as Christ's faithfulness? We have one Romans 3:22, but do we know where the other six or so mistranslation are in many versions?
Here is part of the NET footnote on Ephesians 3:12:
"Though traditionally translated “faith in Jesus Christ,” an increasing number of NT scholars are arguing that πίστις Χριστοῦ (pisti" Cristou) and similar phrases in Paul (here and in Rom 3:22, 26; Gal 2:16, 20; 3:22; Phil 3:9) involve a subjective genitive and mean “Christ’s faith” or “Christ’s faithfulness” "
Here is part of the NET footnote on Ephesians 3:12:
"Though traditionally translated “faith in Jesus Christ,” an increasing number of NT scholars are arguing that πίστις Χριστοῦ (pisti" Cristou) and similar phrases in Paul (here and in Rom 3:22, 26; Gal 2:16, 20; 3:22; Phil 3:9) involve a subjective genitive and mean “Christ’s faith” or “Christ’s faithfulness” "
"...If we translate the key passages as references to Jesus’ faith in our place, it would look something like the following.
ROM 3:22 “even the righteousness of God which comes through the faith/faithfulness of Jesus Christ for all those who believe, for there is no distinction.”
ROM 3:26 “for the demonstration, I say, of His righteousness at the present time, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who is of the faith of Jesus.”
GAL 2:16 “nevertheless knowing that a man is no justified by the works of the Law but through faith of Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we may be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law shall no flesh be justified.”
GAL 2:20 “I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me, and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith/faithfulness of the Son of God, who loved me, and delivered Himself up for me.”
GAL 3:22 “But the Scripture has shut up all me under sin, that the promise by the faith of Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.”
EPH 3:12 “in whom we have boldness and confident access through His faith/faithfulness.”
PHIL 3:9 “and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from the Law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith.”
At every point and at all points in between Jesus and his life and faithfulness is the point
Remember, every translation is a translation of the original text through the lens of a particular theology. The Reformers made a great step forward, away from works based salvation. It is time for us to stand on their shoulders and take the next step in their journey into a faith of Christ salvation, which, I suspect was what they were saying all along."
The faith of Christ
by C. Baxter Kruger, Ph.D.
My recollection of learning Greek is that the Genitive case can have no fewer than nine (!) different meanings.
But for our purposes here, we need to consider just two, the 'objective genitive' and the 'subjective genitive.'
When we consider a phrase like 'the love of God,' it could be God's love towards us or our love towards Him. Only the context can decide. But when we consider 'the fear of God,' it cannot be God who fears, it must be our fear towards God. And in 'the love of money,' it is not money that loves; the text is speaking of men's love towards money.
So when we consider 'the faith of Christ' it could be either our Lord's faith which is somehow credited to us, or our faith towards Him, 'faith in Christ.' Matters are then complicated further by the fact that pistis, meaning 'faith,' can also be translated 'faithfulness.' If we go for 'faithfulness,' is it Christ's faithfulness, or our faithfulness towards Him?
As @Ziggy pointed out in Post #8, Mark 11:22 may be of help. 'Echete pistin theou.' There is the genitive case again. How shall we translate it? 'Have the faith that belongs to God'? No. 'Have the faithfulness that God possesses'? hardly. 'Have faithfulness towards God'? It doesn't fit the context. That is why every translation that I can think of gives 'Have faith in God;' that is, faith towards God. That fits in well with verse 23 which is about faith / belief.
Now let's look at Revelation 14:12: '....And [keep] the faith of Jesus.' 'The faith' here, seems to have the sense of the Christian Faith once delivered to the saints (Jude 3). I don't see how Christians can keep the personal faith of our Lord; therefore it must means the faith that is kept in respect of, or towards, Jesus.
Now let's consider Galatians 2:16, where pistis Christou 'faith of Christ' is contrasted twice with erga nomou, 'works of law.' Now both phrases are anarthrous, that is, they don't have a definite article. Now 'works of law' do not mean that law somehow works; they are our works in respect of, or towards, law. In viw of the fact that these works are being contrasted with 'faith of Christ,' it must surely be our faith in respect of Christ: faith in Christ.'
This is in concord with what we read in Romans 4:3. 'Abraham believed God [that is, he had faith in or towards God] and it was credited to him for righteousness.' In the same way, it is not our works of law that will be credited as righteousness for us, but our faith in Christ.
Thanks for your thoughtful contribution to this thread.
Mark 11:22 is not quite the construction of pistis in the genitive plus Christ (Jesus, Him,etc) also in the genitive case. Here pistin is in the Accusative case.
Acts 20:21 has the same accusative coupled with "eis" thus faith in or toward Christ.
Romans 3:3 has a definite article between pistin and God, with many translations having faithfulness of God.
James 2:1 once again presents a verse frequently translated two very different ways (1) do not hold your faith in Christ while showing partiality to individuals, or (2) do not hold the faith of Christ while shown partiality to individuals.
Finally, Revelation 14:12 again presents two rendering, keep our faith in Jesus or keep the faith (teachings) of Jesus.
So one rendering, have faith in Jesus, refers to us placing our trust in Jesus to save us, while have faith of Christ refers to His life lived for us that made us able to get saved now by His work for our behalf?
My pleasure.
With respect, the case that pistis is in does not affect whether Christou means 'belonging to Christ or 'towards Christ. In Galatians 2:16, which I mentioned above, pistis is in the gentive because it follows dia, meaning 'by' or 'on account of.' '...That we may be justified by faith in Christ' dia pisteos Christou.
I think the context of Romans 3:3 makes 'faithfulness' a plausible translation.
Faith in Christ is always personal, but the fact that pistin has the definite article would tend to make the verse mean, 'Do not hold the faith that is towards our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with partiality.'
Faith and teachings are two different things, and John would have used a different word (didaskalia or didache) if he had wanted to indicate 'teaching'). He means the faith that was once for all delivered to the saints, which is towards or in respect of, Jesus.
Not in my opinion. The KJV's 'faith of Christ' is faith towards or in respect of Christ. Read through my post #35 again.
George Antonios
Well-Known Member
The kind of linguistics neither the Lord nor the apostles ever bothered with. What a waste of time.
When the Bible says in Christ it means "in Christ", and when it says of Christ it means "in connection to Christ".
The Holy Ghost cleared those up for us long time ago by defining cross-references.
Let's stop correcting the Spirit of God and get on with preaching and teaching the words of the living God as they stand.
When the Bible says in Christ it means "in Christ", and when it says of Christ it means "in connection to Christ".
The Holy Ghost cleared those up for us long time ago by defining cross-references.
Let's stop correcting the Spirit of God and get on with preaching and teaching the words of the living God as they stand.