Featured Am I Calvinist or Arminian II

Your theology teaches knowledge of righteousness is an impossibility to the reprobate. Knowledge means knowing he is God. like your buddy above says "Natural man cannot receive the things of God, for they are foolish to Him!"

Don't worry 150 + more verses, for losing salvation. Peter points out the person being worst then how he started points out the danger of having a license to sin. I don't question God's forgiveness for anyone is limitless. I don't believe God's love for a person stops. Trusting a driving instructor actually means stopping on a red light as he taught you.

Galatians 5

4You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.

Galatians 5
21envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

Hebrews 10

26For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27but a terrifying expectation of judgment and THE FURY OF A FIRE WHICH WILL CONSUME THE ADVERSARIES. 28Anyone who has set aside the Law of Moses dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace? 30For we know Him who said, “VENGEANCE IS MINE, I WILL REPAY.” And again, “THE LORD WILL JUDGE HIS PEOPLE.” 31It is a terrifying thing to fall into the hands of the living God.


Hebrews 2

3how will we escape if we neglect so great a salvation? After it was at the first spoken through the Lord, it was confirmed to us by those who heard,

 

Are you reading the scriptures thru the eyeglasses provided by the Church of Rome?

 

Ecclesiastes 7:6 For as the crackling of thorns under a pot, so is the laughter of the fool: this also is vanity.

 

Since "reprobate" is another term for "natural man", the Bible says the same thing ... which is why Orthodox Theology teaches it.

Caiaphas knew he was God ... Scripture says that they wanted to stone him because he claimed to be equal to God and that was the reason that they wanted Jesus crucified. So by your strange interpretation, Caiphas and Judas (who was there when Peter made his famous proclamation) both had the "knowledge" that made them saved.

I still think that Salvation is based on God given FAITH (an act of pure GRACE - undeserved favor) as it says in Ephesians, rather than knowledge.

My "buddy" was only quoting what God said. I am at a loss to understand why you do not believe God on this matter. God certainly repeated the message enough times.

Fortunately for both of us, I am a Calvinist. That means that I believe that YOUR salvation is not in your hands to do or believe the right thing, nor is it in MY hands to make you believe the truth. I am only responsible to pass on the GOSPEL (good news) that Jesus was Holy so you can be made right with God based on His works and not your works. It is the job of the Holy Spirit to change hearts and minds.

 

I think that many times we see here on the Board differences between man centered and God centered Christianity!

 

a Pelagianism, a Darwinian spiritual survival of the fittest, they were better learners than the others kind of thinking.

 

One question extremely hard to have a non Cal explain is just exactly why all hear the same sermon, and yet why only some come to Christ then?

 

If you believe that Jesus is your substitute, meaning He died for your sins and was raised for your justification, you are saved. We are justified by faith: The day you stop believing in the sacrifice Jesus gave for you, then you are no longer justified.
But why does Paul say in 1Cor. 10, that just like Israel, if you grumble, complain and disobey His laws, you will NOT enter the promises land,(In our case, heaven.) Are you justified by grace or not? Do we have to worry that if we complain, be disobedient, etc. we are going to lose our salvation? The fact is: Of course I am going to be disobedient and complain, its my nature to do so.
Oh, you say, "I have a new nature now, and I should not, or do not, have to sin," If I have a new nature, which I do, according to John 3:16, then that means I have the power of the new nature in me NOT to sin, that power is the Holy Spirit. Well, I believe that: But I do not feel the Holy Spirit or any power to keep me from sinning; so guess what--- I am going to keep sinning just like the Israelites. In mine and our own strength we all have fallen short and sin. None is righteous, not one! And the heart is desperately wicked; who can know it?
So why do the apostles throughout the Epistles keep warning us and threatening us that we better stop sinning. What is going on with that??? Why don't they say, of course you are going to keep on sinning; daily! In our own strength we are no better off than Paul concerning his experience in Romans 7; "that which I would do, I do not," etc. Why don't they keep reiterating the fact that God's Spirit in you will GIVE you power to overcome sin; why keep directly warning ME to stop sinning? Why not always bring it back to the power of the Holy Spirit to ENABLE me not to grumble, steal, commit fornication, etc. Why always focus on me like I am supposed to obey God on my own. Isn't that legalism? The bible is confusing: Not just to me, but to Christendom: The proof is in all the denominations who disagree with one another. There is Armenian thinking, Calvinist thinking, hyper grace thinking, Works thinking, grace plus works thinking. Everybody is jacked up in their thinking. I try to put it altogether, trying to understand where the apostles are coming from; it is difficult. I do my best to believe that since I have right standing with God, on the basis of what Jesus did for me. That I now have been given the mind of Christ, so I CAN understand what these apostles 2000 years ago are talking about. They are not very clear, which, again, is why there are so many denominations that all think they know what the apostles are talking about. If it was me who wrote the epistles. Anytime I would tell anyone to stop sinning or else--- I would ALWAYS bring it back to trusting in the enablement of the Holy Spirit. Not saying, "You, you, you! better stop sinning! I an venting today, I am angry.

 

Welcome to the Baptist Board. I hope you break up the thoughts in this post and start threads from them for discussion.

 

I believe in the Perseverance of the Saints. That testifies to God's glory in never failing in His promise. But considering just man, we are to make our election sure. And we make sure by continually examining our faith to see if we indeed are one of the saints.

And that's where I guess we easily slip into doctrinal assumptions - since calvinism holds that God does a supernatural work only in the elect to give them a new heart, they seem to hold this as evidence for being the elect. The arminians (and I along with them) then object to this because they see evidence as in 2Pet 2 and Hebrews for people who have been worked supernaturally in the beginning to fall away later.

Jud 1:5 describes how some are saved from slavery and yet are destroyed because of unbelief without being saved into the promised rest. 2Pet 2 also describes such people who are washed and yet return to the mud. I cannot hold these to be saints but nonetheless, I cannot deny these have been saved/washed by God and yet fall away because of unbelief, not being saved into the promised rest. The difference is in God supernaturally and mercifully giving both the elect and non-elect new hearts but giving only the elect the new nature by rebirth.

 

You get THAT from THIS ...
[Jude 1:5 NASB]

5 Now I desire to remind you, though you know all things once for all, that the Lord, after saving a people out of the land of Egypt, subsequently destroyed those who did not believe.​

God physically saved some out of Egypt and destroyed them because of a lack of faith (spiritual salvation). How does that suggest that God gives everyone a hew heart?

And do the people described below really sound like they have a new heart?

2 Peter 2

1 But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will also be false teachers among you, who will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing swift destruction upon themselves. 2 Many will follow their sensuality, and because of them the way of the truth will be maligned; 3 and in their greed they will exploit you with false words; their judgment from long ago is not idle, and their destruction is not asleep.
4 For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell and committed them to pits of darkness, reserved for judgment; 5 and did not spare the ancient world, but preserved Noah, a [fn]preacher of righteousness, with seven others, when He brought a flood upon the world of the ungodly; 6 and if He condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah to destruction by reducing them to ashes, having made them an example to those who would live ungodly lives thereafter; 7 and if He rescued righteous Lot, oppressed by the sensual conduct of unprincipled men 8 (for by what he saw and heard that righteous man, while living among them, felt his righteous soul tormented day after day by their lawless deeds), 9 then the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from [fn]temptation, and to keep the unrighteous under punishment for the day of judgment, 10 and especially those who [fn]indulge the flesh in its corrupt desires and despise authority.
Daring, self-willed, they do not tremble when they revile angelic [fn]majesties, 11 whereas angels who are greater in might and power do not bring a reviling judgment against them before the Lord. 12 But these, like unreasoning animals, born as creatures of instinct to be captured and killed, reviling where they have no knowledge, will in [fn]the destruction of those creatures also be destroyed, 13 suffering wrong as the wages of doing wrong. They count it a pleasure to revel in the daytime. They are stains and blemishes, reveling in their [fn]deceptions, as they carouse with you, 14 having eyes full of adultery that never cease from sin, enticing unstable souls, having a heart trained in greed, accursed children; 15 forsaking the right way, they have gone astray, having followed the way of Balaam, the son of Beor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness; 16 but he received a rebuke for his own transgression, for a mute donkey, speaking with a voice of a man, restrained the madness of the prophet.
17 These are springs without water and mists driven by a storm, for whom the [fn]black darkness has been reserved. 18 For speaking out arrogant words of vanity they entice by fleshly desires, by sensuality, those who barely escape from the ones who live in error, 19 promising them freedom while they themselves are slaves of corruption; for by what a man is overcome, by this he is enslaved. 20 For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world by the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and are overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first. 21 For it would be better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn away from the holy commandment handed on to them. 22 [fn]It has happened to them according to the true proverb, “A DOG RETURNS TO ITS OWN VOMIT,” and, “A sow, after washing, returns to wallowing in the mire.”
​

• false teachers
• destructive heresies
• denying the Master
• greed
• exploit you with false words
• the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from temptation, and to keep the unrighteous under punishment for the day of judgment
• who indulge the flesh
• despise authority
• Daring, self-willed
• revile angelic majesties
• like unreasoning animals, born as creatures of instinct to be captured and killed
• count it a pleasure to revel in the daytime
• stains and blemishes
• eyes full of adultery that never cease from sin
• a heart trained in greed
• accursed children
• forsaking the right way
• springs without water and mists driven by a storm
• for whom the black darkness has been reserved
• speaking out arrogant words of vanity
• entice by fleshly desires, by sensuality
• slaves of corruption

These are the people who ...

20 For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world by the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and are overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first. 21 For it would be better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn away from the holy commandment handed on to them. 22 It has happened to them according to the true proverb, “A DOG RETURNS TO ITS OWN VOMIT,” and, “A sow, after washing, returns to wallowing in the mire.”​

That sounds more like ...

• [Mat 13:19 NIV] 19 When anyone hears the message about the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what was sown in their heart. This is the seed sown along the path.
• [Mar 4:15 NIV] 15 Some people are like seed along the path, where the word is sown. As soon as they hear it, Satan comes and takes away the word that was sown in them.
• [Luk 8:12 NIV] 12 Those along the path are the ones who hear, and then the devil comes and takes away the word from their hearts, so that they may not believe and be saved.

If it is as you read it, then there is a very abrupt change of WHO is being spoken of at the end of the chapter where it changes from the damnable "false teachers" that have been the subject of the chapter to "those who barely escape from the ones who live in error" (v.18). Do you have anything to indicate that this is the case?

 

We would tend to see this as being not all of Israel was spiritual Israel, just as not all church sitters are actually under the NC now!

 

Given that the exodus is a physical foreshadow of spiritual things to come - Egypt depicts our initial slavery to sin, Canaan is the promised Rest and the wilderness is the period between. As parallels go, why did God provide the passover lamb's blood on the doorposts of those who are going to be destroyed in the wilderness?

Of course not. You ask me at the point of their falling away and most definitely they have returned to the mud after being washed. But doesn't this still imply that they were washed at some point earlier?

It's like pointing to king Saul in 1Sam 10:6-11 and people looking at the work of God at that point in time and counting him among God's prophets - but later Saul falls away and is rejected by God. If you asked me at that later point in time when Saul has an evil spirit etc. if he looks like he's operating out of a new heart, the answer is obviously no - but it still cannot deny that God did do a supernatural work in him once before from which he fell back.

Let's attempt concluding on certain points -

Heb 10:26 For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,
Heb 6:4 For it is impossible, in the case of those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit,...
Heb 6:6 ...and then have fallen away, to restore them again to repentance, since they are crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt.

1. The calvinist holds that only the elect are led to true repentance and are enlightened with the true knowledge. The rest are still blinded in their minds and are hardened in their hearts and cannot ever come to true repentance and true knowledge.

2. Now, the elect too were like the non-elect by nature and kept rejecting God and His Gospel in ignorance until God supernaturally worked in them, much like Paul - and their earlier rejection of God was not accounted as disqualifying them from Christ's sacrifice for them, nor did it make it impossible for them to be renewed to repentance. Again note, Paul knew what the disciples preached and yet do we describe him enlightened or one with a darkened mind while he rejected Christ?

3. However, the Hebrews passages above declare a deliberate sinning after being enlightened (no longer in ignorance) rendering a restoring again to repentance impossible without any more sacrifice for sins.

Question: Did these people in Hebrews reject the Gospel in ignorance or in truth -
a) if in ignorance, how is that different from Paul rejecting Christ earlier and still having a sacrifice for his sins
b) and if in truth, how did these fleshly beings come to truth without a supernatural regenerative work of God in them

 

Think Hebrews 10 refers to those who wouldgo back to OT sacrifice, and be denying the death of Christ as full atonement, while Hebrews 6 would be describing those who profess Jesus as lord, but as John stated, departed out from us , showing were not really one of us!

 

Not really focused on how they fall back but if they fall back - did these ever hold the death of Christ as full atonement for them to now be considered sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of truth?

Heb 10:26 For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,

This is an extension of - "If we sin ignorantly before receiving the knowledge of the truth, there remains a sacrifice for sins"

Knowledge of the truth is said to be received through God opening our darkened minds and hardened hearts, yes? Until then it is simply rejected by fleshly man though it is preached often by the apostles, prophets and evangelists. Hearing, they do not hear.

So let's conclude incrementally in order to make progress - would you agree that to receive the knowledge of the truth, one must be supernaturally worked upon by God?

 

yes, as I am a Calvinist!

 

I am mostly a calvinist and I agree too.

So what supernatural work of God was done in the people who sin deliberately after receiving the knowledge of truth?

 

I would tend to see them as being ones Peter described, as a animal going back into the mudbath!