Catechisms

[Walpole]

the true church of Jesus Christ is NOT Rome, nor Baptist, but of all of the redeemed saved since Adam forward!

The Church certainly includes the faithful in Rome. St. Paul even wrote an entire epistle to the Roman Catholics. He greets them with these words...

"First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for all of you, because your faith is proclaimed in all the world." (Romans 1:8)


Furthermore, St. Luke is the only one who wrote a conclusion to a Gospel with his account of Acts. The book of Acts details the Church's growth from Pentecost and concludes with the arrival of the faith in the city of Rome, from whence it would go out to all the world. (see Romans 1:8 above) If you think the Roman faithful were not members of the Catholic Church, you'll need to demonstrate what Church exactly they were members of.

First Baptist Church of Rome? New Life Christian Center of Rome? Living Tiber World Outreach Center?

Make your case and present your evidence. For example, do you have names, writings, bishops, archaeological sites, liturgies, tombs, epitaphs, baptistries, art or any evidence of someone holding the same faith as you in Roman antiquity, which was proclaimed throughout the world? Where can I go and visit this evidence?

 

[Yeshua1]

The Church certainly includes the faithful in Rome. St. Paul even wrote an entire epistle to the Roman Catholics. He greets them with these words...

"First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for all of you, because your faith is proclaimed in all the world." (Romans 1:8)


Furthermore, St. Luke is the only one who wrote a conclusion to a Gospel with his account of Acts. The book of Acts details the Church's growth from Pentecost and concludes with the arrival of the faith in the city of Rome, from whence it would go out to all the world. (see Romans 1:8 above) If you think the Roman faithful were not members of the Catholic Church, you'll need to demonstrate what Church exactly they were members of.

First Baptist Church of Rome? New Life Christian Center of Rome? Living Tiber World Outreach Center?

Make your case and present your evidence. For example, do you have names, writings, bishops, archaeological sites, liturgies, tombs, epitaphs, baptistries, art or any evidence of someone holding the same faith as you in Roman antiquity, which was proclaimed throughout the world? Where can I go and visit this evidence?

There was NO Roman Church as what we now call the RCC back in Acts, for they were teaching and practicing the Apostles doctrines and practices, and not the pagan and false ones brought in under formal RCC!

 

[Walpole]

There was NO Roman Church as what we now call the RCC back in Acts, for they were teaching and practicing the Apostles doctrines and practices, and not the pagan and false ones brought in under formal RCC!

Of course there was a Roman Church back in Acts. Rome is mentioned numerous times in the book and it ends with the arrival of the faith in Rome. St. Paul even addresses this Church in his epistle to the Roman Catholics...

"To all those in Rome..." - Romans 1:7


Do you have any evidence I asked for supporting your case? Here's an example of the type of evidence I'm looking for from Roman antiquity...

The oldest Christian Church in Rome is a domus ecclesiae named Santa Pudenziana. It belonged to St. Pudens (cf. 2 Tim 4:21), who was the son of the Roman senator Quintus Cornelius Pudens and St. Priscilla, two of Rome's earliest converts. The church served as the church for all the bishops of Rome (popes) from the time Christianity arrived in the first century until the Lateran Basilica was completed and dedicated in the fourth century. It contains some of Rome's earliest Christian mosaics and even has a section of the original altar used by the early Christians to celebrate Mass. The current church has been built on top of the original, but you can still descend to the lower levels to see the first century church.

Santa Pudenziana - Wikipedia


Or, located near the great bend of the River Tiber, the Church of San Paolo alla Regola stands on the home used by St. Paul, whereby he remained in custodia militaris. (cf. Acts 28:16). The Apostle's lodging was located in a densely populated area of Jews, many of whom were tanners. (Rome's synagogue is nearby.) As you enter the Church, there is a beautiful inscription reminding the pilgrim of the historical significance of what's inside, Divi Pauli Apostoli Ospitium et Schola, the Lodging and School of the Apostle St Paul. The small chapel inside the Church is built on the exact spot where the Apostle penned his captivity epistles. There is a beautiful mosaic of the Apostle with his chains above a simple altar where the early Christians celebrated Mass.

---> Where can I find archaeological sites such as these of your sect in Roman antiquity?

 

[Particular]

No just many Roman Catholics, but to ALL Catholics, the Church is the body of Christ. (cf. Eph 5:23, Col 1:24)

The Church therefore is an extension of the incarnation. It is the body of Christ, continuing in time and thus it is a divine institution. The reason this is so shocking to Protestants is because no Protestant sect claims to be a divine institution. Hence, they are nothing more than religious Elks Clubs.

Christ is not, however, the Roman Catholic Church, which is, unfortunately, the thinking of many Roman Catholics.

The elect of God are the body of Christ, the Church. The elect of God can be found in a variety of sects from Rome to Russia to Baptist to Nazarene to Lutherans, et al. God is no respecter of denomination. The flaw of Rome is to imagine God is prejudiced toward them alone. Like the Pharisees and Judaizers, their traditions demand that they alone are God's body. It is a foolish and prejudiced claim that breeds pride and evil behavior.

 

[Yeshua1]

Of course there was a Roman Church back in Acts. Rome is mentioned numerous times in the book and it ends with the arrival of the faith in Rome. St. Paul even addresses this Church in his epistle to the Roman Catholics...

"To all those in Rome..." - Romans 1:7


Do you have any evidence I asked for supporting your case? Here's an example of the type of evidence I'm looking for from Roman antiquity...

The oldest Christian Church in Rome is a domus ecclesiae named Santa Pudenziana. It belonged to St. Pudens (cf. 2 Tim 4:21), who was the son of the Roman senator Quintus Cornelius Pudens and St. Priscilla, two of Rome's earliest converts. The church served as the church for all the bishops of Rome (popes) from the time Christianity arrived in the first century until the Lateran Basilica was completed and dedicated in the fourth century. It contains some of Rome's earliest Christian mosaics and even has a section of the original altar used by the early Christians to celebrate Mass. The current church has been built on top of the original, but you can still descend to the lower levels to see the first century church.

Santa Pudenziana - Wikipedia


Or, located near the great bend of the River Tiber, the Church of San Paolo alla Regola stands on the home used by St. Paul, whereby he remained in custodia militaris. (cf. Acts 28:16). The Apostle's lodging was located in a densely populated area of Jews, many of whom were tanners. (Rome's synagogue is nearby.) As you enter the Church, there is a beautiful inscription reminding the pilgrim of the historical significance of what's inside, Divi Pauli Apostoli Ospitium et Schola, the Lodging and School of the Apostle St Paul. The small chapel inside the Church is built on the exact spot where the Apostle penned his captivity epistles. There is a beautiful mosaic of the Apostle with his chains above a simple altar where the early Christians celebrated Mass.

---> Where can I find archaeological sites such as these of your sect in Roman antiquity?

There was a local church in Rome, but the church in Jerusalem in acts actually was the primary church, as NO papacy, no cardinals, No catholic dogmas and doctrines, so was akin to Baptist church!

 

[utilyan]

Christ is not, however, the Roman Catholic Church, which is, unfortunately, the thinking of many Roman Catholics.

The elect of God are the body of Christ, the Church. The elect of God can be found in a variety of sects from Rome to Russia to Baptist to Nazarene to Lutherans, et al. God is no respecter of denomination. The flaw of Rome is to imagine God is prejudiced toward them alone. Like the Pharisees and Judaizers, their traditions demand that they alone are God's body. It is a foolish and prejudiced claim that breeds pride and evil behavior.

"God is no respecter of denomination. "

Neither are we, We ARE the CATHOLICS. OUR FAMILY is our religion. We put everyone in our FAMILY. Catholic has always meant its adjective designation. If your religion is not your family its a worthless religion.

When a stranger walks up to our door, we can say your in the family what can I do for you. And the goal is to approach with the full sincerity. We can only love God as much as the one we hate the most. W can only care for God as much as those we care least for.

If you had the option of putting everyone in the universe in your family would you do it? Anyone who answers yes is a Catholic.

It doesn't matter what you call us.

"The flaw of Rome is to imagine God is prejudiced toward them alone"

Thats hilarious coming from folks who grind their teeth at how overly merciful we are to Atheists and Muslims. The statement itself claims the accusation that most, some, even one catholic is not ELECT, you are passing a judgement.

Even if I saw you rob a bank I couldn't make a judgment call. Worst case scenario is your a future saint who needs help getting straightened out.

We have the backwards version of license to sin.

In responsibility we Catholics believe we are held accountable more than anyone else precisely because we have the truth and no excuse to behave negatively.

The greater the catholic is, the greater this accountability is dictated by God straight from the catholic's heart.

Its no longer a matter of mere obligation but finding the unity with God's Will.

 

[Particular]

"God is no respecter of denomination. "

Neither are we, We ARE the CATHOLICS. OUR FAMILY is our religion. We put everyone in our FAMILY. Catholic has always meant its adjective designation. If your religion is not your family its a worthless religion.

When a stranger walks up to our door, we can say your in the family what can I do for you. And the goal is to approach with the full sincerity. We can only love God as much as the one we hate the most. W can only care for God as much as those we care least for.

If you had the option of putting everyone in the universe in your family would you do it? Anyone who answers yes is a Catholic.

It doesn't matter what you call us.

"The flaw of Rome is to imagine God is prejudiced toward them alone"

Thats hilarious coming from folks who grind their teeth at how overly merciful we are to Atheists and Muslims. The statement itself claims the accusation that most, some, even one catholic is not ELECT, you are passing a judgement.

Even if I saw you rob a bank I couldn't make a judgment call. Worst case scenario is your a future saint who needs help getting straightened out.

We have the backwards version of license to sin.

In responsibility we Catholics believe we are held accountable more than anyone else precisely because we have the truth and no excuse to behave negatively.

The greater the catholic is, the greater this accountability is dictated by God straight from the catholic's heart.

Its no longer a matter of mere obligation but finding the unity with God's Will.

So, join reformed theology, utilyan. It is the catholic theology of the Bible. We are the family of God, a chosen people, a kindred tribe.
Rome is a false church bent on legalism and tradition with no understanding of grace. Why attend such a Jezebel community?

As for the option of putting everyone in the universe in the family...God chooses not to do that. I have shared Jesus own words to that point. Why would you claim universalism when God, the Father, does no such thing?

 

[utilyan]

So, join reformed theology, utilyan. It is the catholic theology of the Bible. We are the family of God, a chosen people, a kindred tribe.
Rome is a false church bent on legalism and tradition with no understanding of grace. Why attend such a Jezebel community?

As for the option of putting everyone in the universe in the family...God chooses not to do that. I have shared Jesus own words to that point. Why would you claim universalism when God, the Father, does no such thing?

God can speak for himself.

I asked you, If you had the option of putting everyone in the universe in your family would you do it?

Do you share Paul's attitude? Would you sacrifice your own salvation, your own seat in heaven for someone else?

Romans 9

3For I could wish that I myself were accursed, separated from Christ for the sake of my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh,

We are taught Love your enemy, not don't love your enemy too much.

 

[Adonia]

There was a local church in Rome, but the church in Jerusalem in acts actually was the primary church, as NO papacy, no cardinals, No catholic dogmas and doctrines, so was akin to Baptist church!

You have to say that stuff to justify your Baptist faith tradition, one that did not start until the 16th -17th century. There was no 1st Baptist Church of Jerusalem, got that?

 

[Particular]

God can speak for himself.

I asked you, If you had the option of putting everyone in the universe in your family would you do it?

Do you share Paul's attitude? Would you sacrifice your own salvation, your own seat in heaven for someone else?

Romans 9

3For I could wish that I myself were accursed, separated from Christ for the sake of my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh,

We are taught Love your enemy, not don't love your enemy too much.

You ask a foolish question. I have zero authority. However, I would toss the whole lot of us in hell, walk away and throw away the key. No one gets in. Humanity is just too vile and corrupt.

You seem to have no concept of the difference between justice and being kind to others.

Fact is neither you nor I love others unconditionally. We place conditions on love.
God chooses to extend gracious, unconditional love to those he chooses. He chooses to justly deal with sin in every person. That is true love.
See how we act, neither you nor I love like God does. In fact what humans call love is often not love at all.

 

[Adonia]

To many Roman Catholics, Jesus and the Mother Church same thing!

Jesus has His bride - the Church. And since Holy Matrimony joins two together to become one, Jesus and the Church are indeed one, or the "same thing" as you describe it.

 

[Particular]

Jesus has His bride - the Church. And since Holy Matrimony joins two together to become one, Jesus and the Church are indeed one, or the "same thing" as you describe it.

The Roman Catholic Church is not the bride of Christ.

 

[utilyan]

You ask a foolish question. I have zero authority. However, I would toss the whole lot of us in hell, walk away and throw away the key. No one gets in. Humanity is just too vile and corrupt.

You seem to have no concept of the difference between justice and being kind to others.

Fact is neither you nor I love others unconditionally. We place conditions on love.
God chooses to extend gracious, unconditional love to those he chooses. He chooses to justly deal with sin in every person. That is true love.
See how we act, neither you nor I love like God does. In fact what humans call love is often not love at all.

"You seem to have no concept of the difference between justice and being kind to others."

YOU ARE ABSOLUTELY CORRECT.

There is no difference the hebrew word for justice is intrinsically with mercy.

Tzedakah [ts(e)daˈka] (Hebrew: צדקה) is a Hebrew word meaning "justice" or "righteousness," but commonly used to signify charity.[1] This concept of "charity" differs from the modern Western understanding of "charity." The latter is typically understood as a spontaneous act of goodwill and a marker of generosity; tzedakah is an ethical obligation.

Love, Charity, Agape.

You are the one out of line trying to strip justice of what makes it GOOD. When there is no love, there is no GOD. You have the skewed and corrupt view for the word Justice.

You don't even try to defend its connection with Love. It is not the pagan concept of Justice.

"However, I would toss the whole lot of us in hell, walk away and throw away the key. No one gets in. Humanity is just too vile and corrupt."

I know who sounds exactly like that:

13“But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, because you shut off the kingdom of heaven from people; for you do not enter in yourselves, nor do you allow those who are entering to go in.


Of course you would, Thats part of the problem. You are nothing like Paul who would separate himself from Jesus for the sake of others. You've made a judgement call having no place to make it.


"See how we act, neither you nor I love like God does. In fact what humans call love is often not love at all."

You can only love as GOD DOES else it is not love at all. Agape has God as its source. Any Act of Love done by anyone has God as its source.


"Fact is neither you nor I love others unconditionally."

You are wrong we are called to love others. Your hitting every branch of being wrong down the tree. Your error is you are passing a personal judgement call. You should not judge anyone. Accusing anyone is as bad as passing a sentence in its slander.

Luke 6
35“But love your enemies, and do good, and lend, expecting nothing in return; and your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High; for He Himself is kind to ungrateful and evil men. 36“Be merciful, just as your Father is merciful.

37“Do not judge, and you will not be judged; and do not condemn, and you will not be condemned; pardon, and you will be pardoned.


Paul states he judges no one not even himself. And even if he has no sins, his being sinless doesn't acquit, because ONLY GOD can judge and individual.

1 Corinthians 4
3But to me it is a very small thing that I may be examined by you, or by any human court; in fact, I do not even examine myself. 4For I am conscious of nothing against myself, yet I am not by this acquitted; but the one who examines me is the Lord.

For example I can't bet that you sin, I would sin just in expecting you to sin. I would be throwing out an wrongful accusation against you. If someone asks does God love you, If I twiddle my thumbs and say "Well I Don't know...." That by itself is a wrongful judgement and accusation.

God's will of you is not a mystery. God commands his will to you plainly.

 

[Particular]

"You seem to have no concept of the difference between justice and being kind to others."

YOU ARE ABSOLUTELY CORRECT.

There is no difference the hebrew word for justice is intrinsically with mercy.

Tzedakah [ts(e)daˈka] (Hebrew: צדקה) is a Hebrew word meaning "justice" or "righteousness," but commonly used to signify charity.[1] This concept of "charity" differs from the modern Western understanding of "charity." The latter is typically understood as a spontaneous act of goodwill and a marker of generosity; tzedakah is an ethical obligation.

Love, Charity, Agape.

You are the one out of line trying to strip justice of what makes it GOOD. When there is no love, there is no GOD. You have the skewed and corrupt view for the word Justice.

You don't even try to defend its connection with Love. It is not the pagan concept of Justice.

"However, I would toss the whole lot of us in hell, walk away and throw away the key. No one gets in. Humanity is just too vile and corrupt."

I know who sounds exactly like that:

13“But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, because you shut off the kingdom of heaven from people; for you do not enter in yourselves, nor do you allow those who are entering to go in.


Of course you would, Thats part of the problem. You are nothing like Paul who would separate himself from Jesus for the sake of others. You've made a judgement call having no place to make it.


"See how we act, neither you nor I love like God does. In fact what humans call love is often not love at all."

You can only love as GOD DOES else it is not love at all. Agape has God as its source. Any Act of Love done by anyone has God as its source.


"Fact is neither you nor I love others unconditionally."

You are wrong we are called to love others. Your hitting every branch of being wrong down the tree. Your error is you are passing a personal judgement call. You should not judge anyone. Accusing anyone is as bad as passing a sentence in its slander.

Luke 6
35“But love your enemies, and do good, and lend, expecting nothing in return; and your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High; for He Himself is kind to ungrateful and evil men. 36“Be merciful, just as your Father is merciful.

37“Do not judge, and you will not be judged; and do not condemn, and you will not be condemned; pardon, and you will be pardoned.


Paul states he judges no one not even himself. And even if he has no sins, his being sinless doesn't acquit, because ONLY GOD can judge and individual.

1 Corinthians 4
3But to me it is a very small thing that I may be examined by you, or by any human court; in fact, I do not even examine myself. 4For I am conscious of nothing against myself, yet I am not by this acquitted; but the one who examines me is the Lord.

For example I can't bet that you sin, I would sin just in expecting you to sin. I would be throwing out an wrongful accusation against you. If someone asks does God love you, If I twiddle my thumbs and say "Well I Don't know...." That by itself is a wrongful judgement and accusation.

God's will of you is not a mystery. God commands his will to you plainly.

And yet again you attempt to run away from the Roman Church having nothing to do with the body of Christ.

Justice is very much associated with Love. It is loving to send sinners to hell, because it is just.
It is an act of grace to atone for the sin of those God chose. Such amazing grace where justice is substituted upon Jesus sacrifice is extraordinary love.

However, the Roman Catholic Church is neither just nor gracious nor loving. It is self-centered, controlling and guilty of wickedness. The catechism is a whitewashed wall that is blackened by false doctrine.

 

[Adonia]

The Roman Catholic Church is not the bride of Christ.

You can have your own opinion of course, one that is inherently wrong.

 

[Adonia]

Such amazing grace where justice is substituted upon Jesus sacrifice is extraordinary love.

Something which the followers of John Smyth completely ignore. That selfless act on Calvary is the epitome of our worship service the Mass, while you relegate that momentous occasion to a minor part of your weekly service if you even have it at all. Grape juice and crackers - what a joke!

 

[utilyan]

And yet again you attempt to run away from the Roman Church having nothing to do with the body of Christ.

Justice is very much associated with Love. It is loving to send sinners to hell, because it is just.
It is an act of grace to atone for the sin of those God chose. Such amazing grace where justice is substituted upon Jesus sacrifice is extraordinary love.

However, the Roman Catholic Church is neither just nor gracious nor loving. It is self-centered, controlling and guilty of wickedness. The catechism is a whitewashed wall that is blackened by false doctrine.

LOL. Compared to you who can't even name 5 living people God Loves.

You can't name anyone because your faith was built on hatred of others.

I can walk up to any stranger and tell them God loves them. You can't even tell your own child God loves them.

You can give a homeless guy food money or help, IF he asked why you did it? Obligated.

You couldn't credit it to God and say God loves them. That's Pathetic.

John 13

35“By this all men will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another.”

Thats how we know your not even close, because you don't have love for others.

Like you said yourself "I would toss the whole lot of us in hell, walk away and throw away the key."

Satan agrees with you there. Nothing in common with Jesus. Jesus would never say what you said.

 

[Particular]

You can have your own opinion of course, one that is inherently wrong.

It is biblically correct, while yours is biblically wrong.

 

[Particular]

Something which the followers of John Smyth completely ignore. That selfless act on Calvary is the epitome of our worship service the Mass, while you relegate that momentous occasion to a minor part of your weekly service if you even have it at all. Grape juice and crackers - what a joke!

You put Christ on the cross so that his atoning work is not finished, even though he said "it is finished." Instead, you trust in magic bread and wine to save you.

 

[Particular]

LOL. Compared to you who can't even name 5 living people God Loves.

You can't name anyone because your faith was built on hatred of others.

I can walk up to any stranger and tell them God loves them. You can't even tell your own child God loves them.

You can give a homeless guy food money or help, IF he asked why you did it? Obligated.

You couldn't credit it to God and say God loves them. That's Pathetic.

John 13

35“By this all men will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another.”

Thats how we know your not even close, because you don't have love for others.

Like you said yourself "I would toss the whole lot of us in hell, walk away and throw away the key."

Satan agrees with you there. Nothing in common with Jesus. Jesus would never say what you said.

You are sayung that the faith God gifted to me is devoid of love. Yet, God is love. Therefore, you speak in ignorance.